284 - Part 3
ZECHARIAH, CHAPTER 11

Part 3 of 4 Parts

The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
 The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.

 

My other question is, when you were talking in relationship of confessing sin, that sin that comes into your [?mind?minds?], and I quite agree with the other aspect, but I want you to -- looking at Jesus Christ’s temptation, -- I was going through your messages -- Jesus never confessed those thoughts. Instead, he pushed them down.

Jesus of Nazareth?

            Yes, Jesus of Nazareth. When those temptation came [CROSSTALK]

Oh, h- --

            [CROSSTALK]

Oh, yes, but he was already in full stature. You see, it does not become sin -- OK. Let me start from the beginning. The thoughts can come. Hmm, OK. I see what you are saying. In the fallen man, w- -- OK. Jesus was already sanctified. His human spirit had -- was dwelling with Christ to such a degree that his sin nature was underfoot, OK, completely rejected by the Christ. It is only sin when you agree with the thought. In other words, if a thought comes into your mind to rebel against your parents and you do it or you think it or you think evil in your heart towards a man even though you do not speak it, this is spiritual adultery. You have agreed with the thought, and it becomes your sin.

What we are trying to do with this New Covenant is recognize the motions of sin as the thought comes into mind or arises in the emotions and by the power of the Christ mind say no. And when we say no, it is not sin unto us. If a thought of ungodly anger arises in our heart because someone has hurt us and we turn around and say I will not agree with you -- speak to the devil; say, I will not agree with you. This is the operation of sin in my mind. You, go away. And I bless that person, and you truly take that victory in your heart. It is not sin unto you. What I was speaking about was, for example, being angry at somebody without a cause and not recognizing it and making a subtle, hurtful remark to that person. That is sin, and it is spiritual adultery because that sin has expressed itself through you, and that never happened to Jesus. From the moment he was in full stature, s- -- no sin expressed itself --

            [INAUDIBLE]

-- through him. He put it down because he was in full stature. You see, this is the basis of -- or at least one of the bases of my belief that Jesus was not born in full stature. I do not believe that, as an infant, that there could have been no moment of frustration that he did not get his food at the moment that he was hungry, that he did not sin in his heart. I cannot believe that, you see. It was not until he became mature as a human being that -- he started his training in the Hebrew law at 3 years old, and I believe even his experience in the temple, when his parents were looking for him, that that was sin because he should have told his parents where he was. He hurt his parents. They were greatly distressed not knowing what happened to him, and his response to them that teachers frequently exalt was, well, did you not know I would be about my Father’s business? And I suggest to you that that was a manifestation of pride. His mother came to him and said, I am upset. I thought you were lost. I thought a wild beast captured you. And instead of saying, mother, I am sorry that my behavior upset you, he said, well, did you not know? In other words, he refused to take responsibility that the -- his behavior caused his mother distress, and, to me, that is the operation of pride.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yes.

Well, you see, [?on?] this issue, [?he was already?] grown up now, and the disciples stated that his mother was [?also?] looking for him. And he asked, who is my mother and my father? But they [?that do deliver the father?] is my mother and my father. Would that [?be also right?]?

Because he was already in full stature.

            [INAUDIBLE]

The earlier --

            [INAUDIBLE]

Well, it may not have been pride, but I th- -- I believe that it was because he was not -- you mean if he was in full stature, it would not have been pride. Well, I hear what you are saying, but I do not think so because, even if he was in full stature, which I do not think he was, because of his chronological age, he owed his submission to his parents, and he should have told them I am not here. He should have -- if he was in full stature, he would have known their distress, and he would have done the right thing. He would not have been thoughtless. He would have said, mother and father, I will be in the temple. Do not worry. I will catch up with you later, you see. But his failure to do that, although not such a terrible thing, to me, is a sign of imperfection. He caused distress to his parents, possib- -- probably not meaning to, but he was thoughtless. It was -- he did not honor them, you see. He did not consider them. And then when they came to him and said you caused us distress, he did not even take the responsibility.

What [?else?] [INAUDIBLE] [?when he was year 12?] [UNINTELLIGIBLE] he was in the temple. I saw that as the physical body.

[?Yes?].

He was 12, the number of sonship. [?Is 12 not, like, sonship?]? [?So I saw?] the son in the temple. [UNINTELLIGIBLE] mother [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?the soul?] was coming to look for the son [?and was telling the soul?] do you not know I am supposed to be ministering to the other aspects [?in me?], which [?are not yet perfect?]? So I was saying that it may not have been pride. It, like -- it was this period of [?the son?], now in the temple, [?now?] ministering to the other Pharisees within his own self in the temple, which [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. [?Then now?] the soul was trying to -- just like Peter was saying [UNINTELLIGIBLE], so now  [?the soul was coming?], asking [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?yes?] [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

I hear what you are saying, and this is one issue I would never argue with you on. Some issues I t- -- I am very strong on. This, you know, I could be wrong, OK, but my feeling is that she was not telling him not to do it. All she was saying was you c- -- she was -- that is all she was doing, and I teach a lot on communication, and I teach a lot on relationships between people, and I tell the -- I teach all the time, you know, that it is not sin to express your distress. It would have been sin for someone in this situation to say you wicked child, you know. Now, [?well the?] [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- that would be sin, but she did not do that. She made a [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- what I call an I statement. She expressed her feelings, which is perfectly legitimate, and in good communication, the person says -- or if it were me, I practice what I preach. I would say, well, I am so sorry if I hurt your feelings, even if I believed that I did not do anything wrong, OK. Now I think he should have told his parents where he was, but even I believe that he did not do anything wrong, if it was me, I would say I am so sorry that I hurt your feelings. I did not intend to do it, but he did not comfort her. He did not co- -- he did not give her any comfort at all, and I believe that is the operation of pride, OK.

            [INAUDIBLE]

He what?

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yes.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yes.

            [INAUDIBLE]

No. He was not obedient. I do not think so.

            [CROSSTALK]

OK. And just one more second. And with regard to him denying his mother in full stature, what he was saying, that was a very important point because we hear the Catholic Church teaching the mother of God, the mothe- -- she is not the mother of God, Mary. She is the mother of the man, Jesus, OK, who is no longer considering himself the man, Jesus, but now calling himself God and saying how -- you know, how could be -- this be my mother? I [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- how could God have a mother? So we see right there a change in who he was because he never denied that this was his mother when she rebuked him, looking for him. All he said was, what are you bothering me for? He never said to her, you have no authority over me. But in the second instance, when he said she is not my mother, he was saying she has no authority over me, neither did he go out to see her. He did not submit to her, so that in itself is another witness, subtle witness, OK, that he was not perfect in his youth. Y- --

In relation to Jesus [?in the first case?]. Which Father was he referring to? Would you say it was his carnal mind that he was referring to? He said, do you not know I have to go after my Father’s business?

[CROSSTALK]

            Because, since he was not yet in full stature --

[?OK?].

            -- was that not his carnal mind he was talking about?

Oh, no. I believe, by that age, he knew his call, and he knew that he had no natural Father. They start training those little boys at 3 years old in the things of God, so he was trained in the word of God, plus I believe he had supernatural experiences with the Father from a very early age, and I believe he was way ahead of his years. I believe that what he was doing by speaking to the rabbis he had a right to be doing. I think he was brilliant in the things of the law. I believe he had revelation. He knew that his Father was God but that he was Christ Jesus, like we are, you know, but not perfect. And in his zeal, to do his Father’s business, he forgot to consider his mother, which evidenced his imperfection, OK. That is what I believe, OK.

Again, back on your question on your statement on Enoch. I want to ask this. It is -- what I saw with Enoch and Moses and Elijah -- really, Enoch and Elijah was [UNINTELLIGIBLE] because wa­- -- when Jesus came, I found out [?by study?] that China was already, like -- they were very civilized before Christ came. The Wall of -- The Great Wall of China was, like, about 2,000 years before Christ actually came. So [?it is?] -- what I was thinking is, if Jesus Christ, Jesus meaning Yeshua, savior, Christ, the anointed -- so [?I saw it?], like, the word, Jesus Christ, is not actually -- in that context, Jesus Christ was not, like -- he was, like, symbolizing the people like the first Adam, the corporate person. And he, Jesus Christ, was a corporate person. Well, what I am getting at is that, if Enoch and Elijah were translated, on that Scripture that Jesus Christ was the first among --

The first begotten [CROSSTALK]

Yes, first begotten. But it is like it could still be Enoch and Elijah because, in their own generation, they were the saviors in that generation, so [?they could be yet?] the same preincarnate Jesus before [?he was?] actually coming. Because I saw it like the Father [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?he has?] actually sent that same Spirit many times to creation. [?With like?] -- when it came to Israel, it is like he f- -- he decided that this would be the one that would be recorded for people to see. It is like -- because a Scripture in Hebrews says that, by [?faith?], Enoch was translated, so I do not know why. So it is like he -- [?they?] -- we are, like -- they were the same Jesus Christ. Like, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] something like that. So what I am saying is, like, they were also Jesus Christ, but they came not in the full expression like he came because Moses said a prophet will -- the Father [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?unto me?]. So now he was likening Jesus Christ like unto [?his own self?], so [?I do not know?] if you have anything to say  [?or comment?].

[?Yeah?]. I understand what you are saying. I just hope the Lord gives me the answer. I do not agree with that. I am just asking the Lord to give me the right words. Enoch and Elijah, they were translated -- I told you, in my opinion, it means their mind was translated, OK, but Jesus of Nazareth was the only man whose spirit, soul and body was transmuted and became the f- -- the beginning of the creation of God. You see, they might have been translated, but they were not the g- --

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah. They were not the creation of God. You see, Jesus is all -- the beginning of the whole new creation, and Elijah and Enoch were not a part of the glorified man, except, well, in this context. Do you hear what I am saying? OK. I hope I explained it.

            [INAUDIBLE]

OK. Praise the Lord.

            [?The question?] [INAUDIBLE] you did mention that the Pentecostal church is        John the Baptist. Did I get you right?

[?Yes?].

How come they are not recognizing Jesus Christ now? Because during the time of John the Baptist in the Bible, we saw that John the Baptist said that h- -- Christ will increase and he would decrease. How come the Pentecostal church are not realizing that Jesus Christ [?we?] [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?coming?] and let them give way to --

That is a good question. Let me think for a minute. Well, the only thing that comes to my mind is that after John the Baptist announced that -- oh --

            [INAUDIBLE]

Praise the Lord.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Brother Dominic.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Praise the Lord.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Let us see what was a- -- what was I talking about? As John the Baptist, yes. I just call t- -- recall to your memory that even though he acknowledged, behold, this is the lamb of God, not too much long after that, when he was in jail, he sent his disciples to say to Jesus, are you the one? OK. So what does that mean? [?It?] -- what -- this is what it means to me, that while the anointing was on John the Baptist, when the Spirit of Christ was flowing through him, he says, behold, the lamb of God, but when that anointing withdrew, he could not see, you know.

And I know that the Lord has shown me that it is so common for man, and I know I experience it myself. That anointing comes down on me and many of us, excuse me, and we have revelation knowledge, and we understand, and I know the Lord has spoken to me. And then his Spirit lifts off of me, and he expects me to follow through on what he told me to do, and just like in the garden, my carnal mind says to me, is that what God really said to you? I have a whole message on this, and it happens to me all the time, that when Christ is joined in our mind, we know everything so strongly, and we are so secure in our direction. And then the Spirit of the Lord withdraws, and he says, now do it. And, frequently, when the carnal mind comes to us, we go into confusion.

So that is the only answer I have for you now, is that -- and, well, let me say this also. John the Baptist said, behold, the lamb of God, and it was just a one-time event, and he lost it. So along those lines, the John the Baptist company has lost it. I know that is not an ideal answer, but something like that, if you can hear what I am saying, something like that. And what is happened is that their carnal mind has risen up. The carnal mind of the men of God in this new order -- in this old order ministry, they just lost the vision. Let me give you a testimony. I know what I tried to say. Their carnal mind is so opposing the truth that he is blinding them. You see, I find that the Lord really has a sense of humor, and he has rubbed me in so many people’s face that o- -- someday maybe I will write a book.

Let me give you this testimony. When I first started preaching in New York -- I am not too well-re- -- my teachings are not too well-received. I am -- they -- I am called a false prophet and much worse than that on Long Island. That second message on my list, “The Seduction of Eve,” made its way to the pastor of a fairly large church. Our churches are not as big in New York as your churches here. A couple of hundred people is big in New York. And he got a hold of this message and was horrified by it and denounced me from his pulpit on a Sunday morning. How did I know the Lord sent a friend of mine into his church that Sunday? She did not know why she was there. She hears this man talking about this woman preacher and this blasphemy, and he played the -- and she is sitting there saying, he is talking about Sheila. I did not even know he ever heard one of her messages. He is d- -- how did this happen?

So this news got back to me. I know for a fact that he denounced me from his pulpit. Two and a half years later, when I became ill -- you have heard my testimony; I almost died. At that point, I was so weak, the Lord said to me, Sheila, you can no longer be a sp- -- you are no longer -- you have lost your spiritual manhood. You are not strong enough to be directly under Christ. You need someone over you to pray you through in this condition. I said, OK, Lord, you show me. I will submit myself to any man. I just ask that you show me clearly that it is of you, and I will do it. Who do you think he picked?

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yes. So this man never met me, OK. I guess he thought I had horns and was green and I had a tail, but he never met me, OK. But on the other hand, my voice is very distinctive, you know. I called him, and my name is not on my messages, so he did not recognize the name, you see. He -- the man is a man of God. He ministered to me on the telephone. He blessed me. He prayed for me. He even came to see me in the hospital. It took him one hour’s traveling, and I was not a member of his congregation. He prayed for me. He comforted me for three months. Every time I was in great distress, I called, and the whole church prayed me through. I was healed. I went into church. He put me up in front of the whole congregation.

            [INAUDIBLE]

He gave my testimony, and he prophesied over me in front of the whole congregation. God has something special for you. There is something special about you. He has a glorious ministry for you. I think he even said I would teach. But if I had told him right at that spot that I was the teacher on that message of that doctrine that his carnal mind rejected, he probably would have thrown me out of the church despite everything that God had witnessed to him, that I was a woman of God, that I had a call on my life, that God supernaturally saved my life. I had an incurable disease, and all of that goes out the window when your doctrine does not line up with their doctrine, which is -- it is pride. You know, they say I have the doctrine. So it is something along those lines.

I had another experience. I spent, approximately, 12 to 18 months with the Lord sending me from local church to local church to be a thorn in the pastor’s side, and every church I went into -- I think I got thrown out of every one. I do not think I left any one voluntarily. This particular pastor, a man of God, a man of great faith, old order, you know, moved in the word of knowledge, healing, a lot of healing, a lot of prophecy, and for whatever reason, there is was no mo- -- the move of the Spirit was in him, excuse me, but it was not in the service. You know what I am talking about? A man could be anointed, no corporate outpouring, no move of the Spirit, no anointing, no one speaking in tongues, no one prophesying, no corporate anointing or mighty feats of power and awe. Apparently, he had been praying for a long time for a move of the Spirit, for the anointing to come in and cover the whole service.

Well, I did not even know this, OK, but I came in, and the anointing followed after me. I never know what -- when God sends me, I never know what he is doing; he sends me, and I go, OK. All of a sudden, there is tongues; there is prophecy. He had a music minister who had told me afterward he had been praying for years. He had heard about dancing in the Spirit, and in that church, nobody ever moved, but it was Pentecost. You know, we do not move here, but that was Pentecost. You are supposed to be moving and jumping around. Nobody ever moved. They were dancing in the Spirit. Everybody was laughing and happy and joyous, and the joy of Pentecost came in.

And then I had a clash with this pastor. God told me to tell someone that there was a curse on their life, and after much prayer and, I believe, the correct timing, I told the woman, who got upset, who told the pastor, who probably threatened to leave the church and pull her husband’s tithe out if she left. So he called me in. He did not want me to leave. He just wanted my word that I would not do such things anymore in his church, and I said to him I cannot tell you that. If the Lord tells me to do it, I must do it. I said, if you ask me not to come back, I will not come back, but I cannot give you my word I will not serve God in your church.

So he totally misjudged me and thought that I was playing games with him, that I was negotiating, that I wanted a position in the church. That is what his carnal mind thought, and this is what he said to me. He was trying to manipulate me and control me to stay in submission to him. That is my whole point, OK, and he thought he could do that by offering me a position in the church. When he saw that was not working, you know, he -- I am -- what I am trying to tell you is that he could not believe that my motive was to serve Christ and no other motive. He could not believe it, so when he could not buy me, he tried to manipulate me. And he said to me, “Well, you think that the anointing came in with you. You think you brought [?that?],” and I will tell you the thought never even entered my mind. “You thought you brought the anointing into the church, and if you leave, it is going to go with you,” never entered my mind. He said, “That is not true. It is in, and it will not go with you.” In other words, do not leave. Do not b- -- you c- -- he said, “I cannot give you an office in the church now. You have to wait at least six -- another six months.” I said I do not want a position in your church.

He did not believe me, so he was trying to stop me from going, and he was trying to crush what he thought was my negotiating power. He said, “If you think when you leave the anointing is going with you, it is not true,” so just to make the story short, I left because the Lord told me to leave. And guess what happened? The anointing completely went out. I had no desire for such a thing to happen; it was the Lord’s decision. The man cut me off. If I telephoned, he would not return my call. If I wrote to him, he would not respond to me. If he passed me on the street, he would not talk to me. I had given him one of my messages, and he had decided I was not of God, and the Lord completely took out everything that c- -- the Lord brought into -- I give God all the glory. The Lord brought it into the church through this vessel, and it was -- the Lord could have left it there, but it came out. Everything came out.

So what is my whole point? God -- in this particular church that I am telling you, God did signs and wonders through me in that church. And as soon as he read my message, and I b- -- he was not even that mad at me w- -- about breaking the curse. When he read my message, that was when he completely cut me off, so my whole point is it does not matter. God shows them. He shows them his power on you. He shows them signs and wonders on you. He shows them his glory on you, and then they f- -- listen to your doctrine, and they cast you out. So something is not operating in them.

Oh, I think the Lord just said this. Well, not exactly. He was not saying this is the lamb, OK, but he definitely did acknowledge me as of God in the church. And then as soon as he heard the doctrine, he withdrew his endorsement. So they are operating in the John the Baptist company on some level, but, of course, they are not as holy as John the Baptist was. I am getting it out as I talk. It is coming out. They are not as holy as John the Baptist was. John the Baptist was utterly consecrated and set apart to God. These men are not. First of all, John the Baptist was -- he was [?in a scene?] He was a holy man who had removed himself from society. He lived in the woods, a total isolated life with Christ. He was the -- a Levite priest. He was a Levite, if I am not mistaken. [?It is?] -- out of a p- -- the priestly line, which means the inherited sin on his line was at a minimum because of his heritage, OK. So the John the Baptist company today is not in the same spiritual place where the John the Baptist was, so all of these factors.

But I believe -- what I am trying to say, and I am having trouble getting it out, is that I believe that the witness is in their heart. The witness is there because the witness to Christ is in the Holy Ghost, but then their carnal mind rises up, and their pride rises up and knocks out the Holy Ghost. And that is another teaching that I do teach, and I believe it, that the carnal mind knocks out the Holy Ghost all the time. The carnal mind cannot knock out Christ that quickly, but he knocks out the Holy Ghost all the time.

One thing that I noticed, if you are in a service, an old order service, and something breaks the anointing, I have never ever seen the anointing come back after it is been broken in an old order church. Now the old order preacher will tell you the Holy Ghost is a gentleman. You grieve the Spirit, and he goes away, and his feelings are hurt, and he does not come back. I know. I knew that could not be true, and recently the Lord gave us some understanding that the carnal mind kills the Holy Ghost under certain circumstances, but Christ is another story.

And I have been in services where the carnal mind has risen up in great power and come against the anointing and tried to break it down. The way the Lord has given it to me to express it is that when we have a service like this, the bones of Christ are erected, Ezekiel’s bones, the resurrection of the dead Christ is raised up in a temporary manifestation, and he is abiding over this whole room, exalting himself, saying that, despite the fact that everybody has a carnal mind which is sitting down on their soul, which is expressing themselves through their soul, even though the carnal mind is the sitting queen of our soul, Christ has arisen, has erected a manifestation of his life and is exalting himself in his very presence, OK. And there are certain forces in this world that can knock him out. Why? Because the -- Satan is the prince of the power of the air, the god of this world, and every manifestation of Christ in this world is an invasion of the territory of the god of this world. So Christ comes in, he exalts himself, and Satan knocks him out. Christ comes in, he exalts himself; Satan knocks him out. But one day very soon, Christ will come in and exalt himself, and Satan will not be able to knock him out, and the man in whom this happens will be in full stature.

So we see that, in Christ, I have experienced someone’s mind manifesting because Satan is always in somebody’s mind. Someone is in the congregation, they oppose something that you preached. You see, this is not conscious. You cannot be angry at anybody or take any personal attitude towards the person. Frequently, it is unconscious, or if it is conscious, they think that they are justified. It is a lack of understanding, but the carnal mind rises up and opposes Christ and tries to knock out the anointing.

And I have experienced it happening to me, and I have prayed, and the Lord has brought it back in the same meeting, and I have never seen that happen with the Holy Spirit, but I have seen it happen with Christ. And I will say, Lord, I was shot down. Either one or a company of carnal minds has risen up, you know. Frequently, I do not even know who it is, but it is somebody out there. You know, somebody’s mind has risen up and slung the stone at me, and the Christ in me got knocked down, and I confessed that that happened. Please, raise me up again so that you should be glorified. This would be my typical prayer. How are you glorified if the anointing is broken over this meeting? Do you not want to finish the meeting? And he rises -- I have seen him come back up again. I have never seen it happen with the Holy Ghost, so we see Christ is more powerful than the Holy Ghost. And, once again, I compare Christ to the Holy Ghost in the way that I compare a male seed with a full-grown s- -- well, my Christ may not be a full-grown spiritual warrior, but at least he is a 13-year-old boy that is wielding a sword, OK.

So Christ is stronger than the Holy Ghost, and Christ grows in wisdom, and he grows in grace. And I am looking forward to the day that -- my Christ gets knocked down all the time. It happens to me all the time, and I get mad. I do not like it, but I am still not full-grown, so what do you do? You just stand up. You brush yourself off. I have to confess that I have been knocked down. I repent that it is a weakness in me, and all weakness is sin, and I cry out to Jesus to raise me up again. It is not pleasant to be knocked down, and I have been very angry over this last year and how many times I have been knocked out in my own meetings in New York. And I have complained to the Lord and said this just is not right. One strong mind comes into my meeting and knocks me out. What does that make me? What does it make me? It makes me young in Christ; that is what it makes me. I would like to think I am very mature in Christ, but I have to confess that I am not. I might be more mature than a lot of other people in the church today, but when I compare myself to my standard, I have so far to go that sometimes I just sit down and say I do not know, Lord. Where is this power coming?

So I was beating on heaven’s doors for more power just this past year. We had one young man coming to the meetings. He had no idea that it was his mind. He was new in Christ. He was undelivered, and his carnal mind was going crazy, and he knocked me out a few times in my own meeting. So I complained to the Lord, and I believe I received an increase from that time, and this is how the Lord demonstrated it to me: It was an unusual night. The anointing was so thick you could cut it with a knife. Everybody was getting slain in the spirit, including me. I could barely preach. I was falling asleep as I was preaching, it was so thick.

And then I finished preaching, and everybody was just basking in it, and I f- -- I perceived sin. It registered in my mind as a sinful thought, and when that happens -- you have heard me talk about that. I never know where it is originating. Is it originating with me, or is it originating with someone else? I usually cannot tell. Even if it is somebody else, it registers as my thought, and I actually perceived the anointing diluting, and I just cried out to God. I said, Lord, if it is my sin, I repent. Do not let that sin break this anointing. I confess it as sin. Do not let it happen. And it was just a complete reverse. I just -- I do not even know how to describe it to you. I could perceive the anointing diluting, and then it just turned around, and it became thick again, and I think it was -- Celia had told me at that point. I was not aware that someone had been very angry at something I p- -- was it something I preached that you thought she was ang- --

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah. See, when I am preaching, when I am under that anointing when I am preaching, I have a lot of knowledge, but there is a lot of things that I do not see that I would see if I was my natural self. Like, I will have knowledge. I heard a question in your mind a couple of times Sunday. I knew somebody wanted prayer, if you noticed that, but I only see what God shows me, you see. He does not show me everything, so for whatever reason, I did not see that this woman was distressed, for whatever her reason. And the way the Lord answered my prayer was that, apparently, she was thinking about confronting me, but she changed her mind, and she left, and the anointing abode.

But I am looking forward to the day that she could be manfiest- -- that 50 people could be manifesting their carnal mind, and it will not break this anointing, you see. I said, thank you, Lord. If that was your decision to move a mind that wanted to fight with me out, if that was your decision, that is fine, but it is not good enough. It is not good enough for me. I want to see an unbreakable anointing, that it should only come down when Christ says I am withdrawing for this moment. That is what I live to see. I live to see it. I live to see Christ glorified. I want to see it. I preach it. He gave me this message. I pay the price. I bear the persecution. I want to see him standing in power. I want to see it, and I expect that I will have my prayer answered someday.

But getting back to w- -- this teaching about the bones of Christ, it is -- I have a whole message on it. It is on the 186, on the s- -- on the Christ series, and this is when this teaching came down, that the bones of Christ, Ezekiel’s bones, are being raised from the dead temporarily, OK, and that this anointing that abides over the meeting, it has substance to it, but it is not the physical substance of a chair like this. It is the spiritual substance. It is the very life and person and presence of Christ who has been raised from the dead, and he is as real -- he is more real than we are, except that he is not -- he is only visible with spiritual eyes. He can be perceived in the emotions, but he is al- -- mostly perceived in the spirit, and he has literally raised himself from the dead. And, therefore, when a carnal mind or when sin comes in that is powerful enough to knock you out, for all intents and purposes, all of those bones that have come together and erected his life get knocked out, and the bones fall apart, and the anointing goes down.

So the anointing, it is the presence of his life, and it is important because God uses his anointing for several purposes, probably many purposes that I do not even know about. But I know that there is life in his presence, you see, and it does not matter what word you call it. You could call it the anointing; you could call it his presence; you could call it his life. It does not matter. It is that spiritual substance which is of Christ. I will never argue over semantics. You can call it whatever you want as long as I have reason to believe that we are talking about the same thing, I do not cl- -- care if you call it Ish Kabibble, t- -- you know, to tell you the truth.

And I have found that as I go from location to location or from church to church or from country to country, that people have different ways of expressing things. Frequently, people are ready to argue with me, and I say hold it, hold it, hold it. Tell me what you are t- -- we are probably talking about the same thing. We are just using different words, and most of the time that is true, and I have no problem conceding in such a situation. I say to the person, I will use your words. I have no problem using your words. It is OK with me, OK, but if we are truly in agreement, why should we be striving with one another?

So, you see, this anointing or this presence of Christ, there is life in it. You could be healed just sitting in a room in which his bones have been erected. Now you could be healed home in your bed also, but, you see, the Lord has a certain program and plan and way of doing things, and it is my understanding that, if you need a healing, you are more likely to be healed sitting in a room over which his bones have been erected. You are more likely to be healed sitting under this anointing than sleeping in your bed, but he can heal you when you are sleeping in your bed if he wants to, but he has a pattern of his life, and we need that pattern of his life because -- although, who could ever know the mind of God? It helps to -- the more that we can know about God, the more equipped we come [sic] to get what we need from him because he wants us to do things his way, OK.

Now, for example, if you want to receive the Holy Ghost, he -- God could do anything. He could send a lightning bolt in your sleep and give you the Holy Ghost. But most people who pray for the Holy Ghost, he sends them to a church where they manif- -- where the Holy Ghost is manifested, and maybe someone needs to lay hands on you. I received the Holy Ghost without anyone laying hands on me, but the Lord sent me into a fellowship where the Holy Ghost was fully manifested, and he got on me.

So God has a plan. He has a pattern of how he does things, and that is a good thing because people that are seeking him, if they could just figure out the code, they might have a better opportunity of getting blessing from the Lord, and there is great blessing in this corporate outpouring of the anointing that comes when two or more are gathered in his name. Now I know the Scriptures when two or more are gathered in my name, I am in the midst of them. Well, I believe that on faith. Now, first of all, his name is his Spirit, so I believe that in faith, but I know that every outpouring of the anointing of his life is not the same. I know it is not the same and that it varies from man to man. It mar- -- varies from group to group, and with the same group, it could vary from meeting to meeting.

 So that is his expression of his life, and he will manifest in whatever strength he chooses to manifest in accordance with his purposes. It is our part to find out where he wants us, and we go where we think we are going -- he is going to meet our need, and we hope for the best. So in this corporate outpouring of his life, in this anointing, just being present in the room, there is healing. There is healing; there is deliverance; there is knowledge; there is spiritual gifts; there is stimulation of your own spirit. If Christ is being formed in you, there is spiritual growth that, even when the meeting is over, if your spirit was touched and it was increased, that increased -- you do not lose it. If you have matured because you have sat under the anointing, that maturity remains with you. If you have been healed because you have sat under the anointing, that maturity remains with you.

Now that does not mean that, if someone comes into town, like me, and I go home, that you cannot get anything of God. God will raise up somebody else to do it if he chooses to do it. God will do it in your sleep; God will do it on the street; God will do it when you are laying in a hospital bed. He can do it wherever he wants, but he does have an order, and if the Lord makes a judgment that this day or this hour or this night or this week or this month he is doing it in a particular place at a particular time and you go to the place where he was last month, you are going to be in the old place while he is in the new place, and he is not doing it in the old place on that night. He is doing it in the new place. It is a question of obedience. That does not mean that, after he finishes doing it in the new place, that he can go back to the old place and do it in the old place again.

He can do anything that he wants to do, but when he decides to concentrate himself in a particular area for a particular length of time, if he decides to do it, then you have a choice. You can go along with what he is doing and get whatever he has for you in that anointing, or you can resist it and not partake of that anointing. Do you lose your salvation? No. Do you lose your relationship with Christ? No. Does it mean that if you are looking for a healing and you miss a meeting that you have lost all hope of the healing? No. Does it mean if something was taught that night you could never learn it again; there is no opportunity for you to ever learn it? No. It does not mean any of that. What it means is that, at any given moment, God is offering opportunities for spiritual experiences in him, and if you are there, you can partake of it. If you are not there, what was poured out that night, you have not partaken of it. It does not mean you are rejected or you are cast away, but you have not partaken of it. It is an experience that you have missed.

Now you say, what if you had a legitimate reason for not being there? Would God punish me? No. God is not punishing you. Just pray that the Lord helps me to explain this. It is not that way at all. Look, if he is pouring himself out here in Lagos and he is pouring himself out in New York and he is pouring himself out in California, nobody can be in all three places at once, but God will honor your efforts, you see, and he will bless you [?when?] the night -- he is not going to punish you forever. He is not going to stick you with pitchforks. It is just an attitude. He is looking at the attitude of your heart, and he wants you to learn to follow the cloud and the pillar of fire wherever he is. He loves you. He loves every one of us. It is a training as to where to find him. It is a training that, when he raises up the standard, if we could possibly come, we should come. That is what the anointing is. There is life in it at that moment. It is just everybody does not grow at the same rate of speed.

I believe that the man who is panting after Christ, who is going the extra mile, like you three -- you have been at every meeting. I think God is going to honor that. He is going to bless it with spiritual growth and maturity, if you nee- -- whatever your -- the desire of your heart is, healing, whatever you are seeking, whatever you need. God has to honor it, so, you see, the fact that he is honoring you does not necessarily mean that he is cursing the people who could not get here. Do you understand what I am saying? So you say, well, God knows that I had to work, and I could not -- yes, God knows that you had to work and you could not get here, but in the meantime, there is a real possibility that the people who could get here may have a s- -- a growth spurt that you will not get. Well, if that makes you upset, then you must go to the Lord and say, Lord, the next time there is such an opportunity, please make a way for me to get to every meeting because I want the same growth spurt.

You see, it is very capitalistic. The Lord is -- this whole problem, it is very capitalistic. The one who seeks hard enough -- seek, and you shall find -- he achieves. There are different degrees of spiritual growth. That which you put into something, you will get out of something. God is not torturing people who do not make the effort, but he is rewarding people who do make the effort, so we have some people in the church who -- it is a spirit of rebellion. It is rebellion. They do not want to make the effort. They do not want to believe that there is a special blessing if you can discern the anointing and go where God is as long as he is pouring it out. They do not want to believe it. They want to believe they can get the same blessing sitting home by themselves. Well, my answer to you is sit home, and give me a call five years from now, and let me know if you have experienced the same spiritual growth as the people who are in the meetings. And if the answer is no, you are now five years behind, your choice. But there is life in this corporate outpouring. There is glory in it. There is healing to your soul and your body. It is glorious.

Anybody else?

[?Still on the line of exposing?], you did mention that we could tell our brothers or sisters [?if we feel?]. Do you think when we come to full stature -- because I have read [UNINTELLIGIBLE] someone like Charles Finney. [?Like, he walked into a city where beer parlors where closed down?], even without ministering, [?people who dressed anyhow dressed well then?]. Do you think when we enter there is going to be this kind of not really telling you, look, the way you spoke was not right? The person simply knows just by your presence that what they did was wrong. Like, you [CROSSTALK]

I doubt it.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah. Well, that may be true with things like smoking and drinking and adultery, you see, sins that the world is already convicted of, OK. I see that happening right now, people that chain smoke. When they come around me, they will not smoke, but, you see, I am not a religious person. If you smoke and y- -- and God has not taken it from you yet, y- -- I -- you will never hear me saying anything to you, you know. I am really not a religious person at all. As long as you are not openly engaged in some serious sin that you are doing right in front of me, I only will speak to you if the Lord sends me to you. So especially if it is not in my home and you smoke, it is between you and the Lord, but a lot of people cannot deal with me. They expect me to try to stop them from smoking, you know.

But the problem with what you just said -- the whole purpose of the white throne judgment, of showing men their sins, is that the average man does not know that what he just said or what he just did or what he just thought is sin. They do not know, you see. So you are speaking about Charles Finney coming into town and bars shutting down and people stopping smoking. These are people who know it is -- well, I -- you know, I do not even know that drinking is sinful. It is not a sin. It is not good for you. I believe that when you drink, it hinders any expression of the Holy Spirit or Christ in you. I believe that anyone who is serious with God should not drink because, when you are drinking, it is not Christ in you drinking. It is your carnal mind drinking, so you are giving strength to your carnal mind. You are giving strength to the works of the flesh. But is it sin? Self-destructive. It is self-destructive. I do not recommend it. Why would you want to do it if you are serving Christ? OK.

But people know that it is not good for them because they will stop drinking; they will stop smoking. People know that. The white throne judgment is for people who cannot recognize the operation of sin. They do not know that it is sin. They have been doing it all their life. Their mother did; their grandmother did it; their great-grandmother did it, and they had no idea whatsoever that that is sin. That is the whole purpose of showing people their sins. Brother, if I am engaged in some kind of sin and I already know it is sin, I do not need some son of God to come and tell me that it is sin. I do not need him to do that. It is the hidden sins of the heart that are not -- and have not even been acknowledged as sin up until this time, mostly pride, mostly the operation of pride, which has so many subtle manifestations that the average person has no idea that they are in sin; that is the job of the sons.

And, also, on the other hand, I do not think we are going to see the extravagant manifestations that you just described, that Charles Finney came into town and the bars closed down and people stopped smoking. I do not think we are likely to see that with sons. It is going to be quiet, one-on-one, you know, or just a couple of believers together, personal, very personal, you know. Although, I do believe, when someone is in full stature, that a presence of righteousness will be there, OK, but if you do not know that it is sin, that presence of righteousness is not enough.

The sons must teach the people; we are teachers. We are there to teach them, to s- --  what you just said, you cannot do it in Christ. It is the operation -- it is the motions of sin. We are to be teachers of the people, teachers of righteousness, and that is the whole point of the -- excuse me, of the sons, to come and show people their sins so that now they can choose. You see, where there is no law, there is no imputation of sin. Until -- before the Lord will judge you and a t- -- and cast you down or c- -- or p- -- for whatever reason bring judgment, satanic judgment, upon you, he, because of his own righteousness, must give you a conscious understanding that what you are doing is sin because it would not be righteous for the Lord to turn you over to Satan to learn not to blaspheme when you did not even know you were blaspheming. It is not a righteous thing to do. So he sends a servant to you. He sends a son to you to tell you. If you can hear the correction and cry out to God, it will go easy for you. If you cannot hear it, then you are t- -- eventually, after much -- many, many opportunities to repent -- God is very longsuffering -- you are turned over to the satanic judgment.

I know, when I was being raised up, I had a pastor over me who was very cruel to me on many occasions. I -- he was my secular employer for one whole year, and he mistreated me. I wa- -- not only -- it was not only that he mistreated me, but I was in such shock that this man of God could be so ungodly that I could not cope with it. The way I was dealing with it was by talking about him. Anybody who would listen to me, I would say, do you know what he did to me? Do you know what he did to me? I do not believe he did this to me.

And the Lord came to me one day, and he said, Sheila, no matter what he has done to you, he is still the authority that I placed you under. And if you do not stop talking about him, I am going to rain down judgment on you. Now I had no idea what the Lord -- what h- -- what form that judgment would take, but I will tell you the Lord scared me half to death, and I confessed to him that I could not stop what I was doing.  I could not stop talking about him because my speaking about him was arising out of my distress. It was a natural -- for me, with my sin nature, a natural reaction to his abuse of me. And up until the point that the Lord approached me and said, Sheila, that is sin, I thought I was justified. The man was abusing me, and I was talking to only a couple of people. I was not maligning his name all over the area. I was just repeating my personal experience. I did not know it was sin. I thought I had a right to be doing it because he was mistreating me.

So the Lord told me, if I did not stop, he was going to rain down judgment on me, so I had to confess that I could not stop, that my reaction to my pastor’s abuse was an expression of my sin nature, and I had sin in my heart and that I was responding to his sin against me with sin. But I was so scared that I just begged God to help me. I said I do not know what is going to happen to me. I cannot stop, so I throw myself on your mercy. I w- -- now here is a good example of the anointing too. I had that fleece before the Lord for several days. There was no deliverance in my home. There was no deliverance in my bed. There wa- -- although, there could have been, but God chose to deliver me under the corporate anointing of the church that I was associated with. Now that does not mean if I was not associated with a church that he could not deliver me; it means that I was associated with a church, and the Lord chose to deliver me under the anointing in that church. Can you hear that? It does not mean if there was no fellowship that I was associated with that he could not deliver me, but there was in fact such a fellowship, and he therefore went to the most mature manifestation or the most mature expression of his person around, which the Lord decided was the outpouring or the anointing in that church that I was being raised up in.

That church was an authority over me. The pastor, as ungodly as he was, was an authority over me. The anointing in that church was the anointing or the measure of the anointing that God has put over me, and that was where the deliverance came, and it was not my choice. I prayed in the bedroom; I prayed in the living room; I prayed in the kitchen; I prayed in the bathroom; I prayed in my job; I prayed in the street. Lord, do not let this judgment fall on me. And then I went to church, and the pastor was moving in word of knowledge. The Lord sent him to another sister. I -- see, I knew my problem was pride. I knew that the reason I could not stop talking about him was that it was pride in me. I knew; I had that revelation.

And the pastor called out this sister for deliverance from pride, and I stood in the church, and I said, Lord, I do not deny this sister anything. I just -- I am so grateful that you are bringing her deliverance, but you are God, me too. You see, there is no reason to be envious; there is enough for everybody, but me too. You are telling me this judgment is going to fall on me, and I prayed in the bathroom, and I prayed in the kitchen, and I prayed in the kitchen, and I prayed in the living room, and I prayed at work, and I prayed on the way to work and on the way home, and there is no deliverance. And here you are delivering this other sister by word of knowledge. What about me? Please, do not forget me. So that was my prayer under the corporate anointing, nothing, pastor did not come to me, so I took it a step further.

I did all I could do. In this particular church, the format of the service was, after the preaching, you could go up and request prayers. So I sat through the whole message, and then I went up on the prayer line, and d- -- we had it -- the members of the congregation prayed in this church. A woman sat down with me. What do you want deliverance from? Pride. She started to pray, nothing. All of a sudden, the Lord sent the pastor over. Why? Could the deliverance not come from the woman who was praying with me? Could the deliverance not come from the woman in the back of the church? Could the deliverance not come from Joan Schmo? Yes. The alley cat in the church could have manifested the anointing, but God has an order of authority, and it was his choice to bring this deliverance down through the pastor under this anointing in this church on that night. Who am I to say no?

So I am sitting there praying in my heart, oh, God I did all I could do. Your judgment is going to fall on me. This woman has no anointing at all. And all of a sudden, I heard the pastor approaching me from behind, and this man moved in the Spirit, so I knew it was God, took his arm, his whole forearm, and just stretched it across my back from shoulder to shoulder, and pride is across your back. I do not know whether you know that or not. It is across your back, across your shoulders and your neck and down your spine, frequently. Just laid his forearm from shoulder to shoulder and just pressed on me for about two minutes, and the manifestation came. He brought it to the surface. He walked away. The woman continued to pray for me, and I had the most visible deliverance I have ever had in all my walk with the Lord. I vomited all over myself. I had a napkin in my hands. I overshot the napkin. I had to go home and change my clothes. I smelled from the vomit, and my whole life changed after that deliverance. I was delivered from the rod of pride, the rod being the tongue, pride that expresses itself through talking. How could he do that to me? Indignation, haughtiness. How dare he? That is pride. How dare he not conform to my idolatry of him? How dare he be a fallen man and manifest sin towards me? How dare he disappoint me? How dare he mistreat me? How dare he be everything that he is? How dare he not be what I thought he was? How dare he not do what I thought he should do? How dare he have a thought apart from my thought? Rod of pride. It is all pride.

And my whole life changed after that. I drove home, and I sat in my car outside of my residence, and this quiet peace was all through me. I had never experienced such a peace, and I just sat there, and my clothes were all dirty, for about an hour. And this peace lasted for a couple of days, and I -- there was a radical change in my personality from that day forward. So, you see, we must cry out to God and wait for his response, but he will do it wherever he wants to do it, and he wants us to be where he wants us to be when he chooses to do it, so it is not a question of God cannot do it someplace else. It is a question of obedience to him, and he has an order of authority.

It is been my experience that when the Lord is going to move, whether it be deliverance or teaching or healing or anything like that, he will do it in a group. He will do it through, excuse me, the most spiritual mature person around, the one in whom Christ is the most mature. That is been my experience. That is who he uses. It is not that someone else does not have the gift of healing. It is not that everybody does not have the Holy Ghost. It is not that you do not have Christ also. It is that God has an order of authority. There is an authority in the church.

Now many Christians today do not want to acknowledge that. They think we are a church full of lone rangers. It is everybody with Christ, everybody with Christ, but it is not true, not at this point. Eventually, yes, but not now. Everybody is not equally mature, and the Lord will manifest through the most mature person, even if that person is not in the pulpit, and he expects you to recognize that maturity. So what does that mean? If somebody is in town -- like me, if I am in town for five weeks and the Lord chooses to give you your miracle through me, it does not mean that if I leave town that you cannot get a miracle. It means that, while I am in town, if it is true, I am the most mature manifestation of Christ around. He will s- -- he is most likely to do it through me, but when I leave, he will go to the most mature manis- -- manifestation of Christ around. It does not mean when I go away there is nothing left for you. Do you understand what I am saying?

But he has an order of authority, and he honors it. It is very important to him, and that authority he witnesses to the fact that this is his senior minister with that anointing. How do you find out who is the most senior? You look for the anointing; you look for it. So we see the anointing is a witness to the power of God on a person. The witness -- the second witness to Jesus was the Father. Who was the first witness? He says I do not witness of myself. It was the Christ in him. The Christ Jesus in him was the first witness, and the Father, the Spirit of Christ, was the second witness, the Spirit and the Word. So we see the church has a lot to learn today, and God is able to teach us. Do you have any other questions?

This other question is in connection with the words you use. I do not know if I should say whether it is semantics or you definitely [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?of turning?] the carnal mind. You use killing the carnal mind. We know that the Scripture says, when we come to full stature, we will reign over nations or it will give us power over nations. Is this nation talking about people outside? Because I know that, to reign, you must have a people rebelling against you.

[?Yes?].

But if you get into full stature, I -- who would be ruling over or reigning over? Do you understand [CROSSTALK]

Yes, I believe I do. I know that there is a teaching in the church that those that stand up in full stature will be reigning over the other peoples, and I do not believe that. Jesus said he who is greatest amongst you shall be your minister, OK. I believe the nations that we will rule over -- the nations is referring to this external body, I believe. It means Christ in us will rule our entire cosmos, OK. So Christ -- there is only one Christ; he is not divided, one Christ in many members. And the one Christ is ruling over the nations, our carnal selves, until such time as the whole creation is glorified, glorified meaning spiritualized. So long as we are still in this flesh, so long as we are still living in the kind of society that we are living in, Christ will rule over the nations from an internalized position. Christ in you will rule you; Christ in you will rule you; Christ in me will rule me, OK. I do not see men in full stature being kings over the rest of the world. I see them being benefactors, being ministers, being teachers, but also being judges, but you have to understand what a judge is, not in the way secular kings rule, not in the way that doctrine is being preached, if that is what you are talking about. The judgment only comes -- for example, as -- although this is not Christ, John the Baptist rebuked the king for having his brother’s wife, that kind of thing, not to judge in telling people how to run their lives and who they should marry and -- not that kind of ru- -- is that what you were getting at --

            [INAUDIBLE]

-- when you said rule the nations? No, I cannot see it, no. I do not believe it. As a matter of fact, [?on?] -- and when we get in these areas, I could easily be wrong, or I could change my mind six months from now, you know. I really do not know. I do not even see the sons of God being in government, and I think I mentioned this one night over in Aguda. I do not see them being in government. I see them ruling from their minds, you know, from the righteousness in their minds, resulting in the correct men being elected to office, you see, because the truth of the matter is --

Those of us sitting here right now, let us say we were in full stature, OK. Well, I do not know about full stature, but let us say that we were pretty mature in Christ. That does not mean we are qualified to be president of Nigeria, you see. To be president of Nigeria, you have to have some experience and some knowledge of politics, of public works, of building roa- -- you have to at least know how to choose minister- -- I would not know what to do. I would not know what to do if I was elected president of Nigeria, but in Christ we have power to have the most qualified man in the secular business of the world. God will raise up a man that is good at managing money, that is good at the economy, that is good in giving the nation whatever he needs, but he may not be instructed in righteousness.

So the so- -- the righteousness of the sons will pick the man that is most qualified to do the secular work, and the power of our love towards him and the power of our prayers told him would work against any temptation to corruption, for example. The Lord picks the most secularly business minded qualified man, and the righteousness in the son subdues his temptation to take [?graft?], subdues his greed from -- [?of the?] positions of our thoughts towards him. Can you hear that? Do you know what I am talking about? That is how we will rule. I d- -- I cannot see a son of God as president of Nigeria or president of the United States. I cannot see it. I see the business-minded, politically oriented man whose carnal mind is continuously being monitored by the righteousness of God so that he could do the very best job that he is capable of doing. That is how I see it.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yeah.

That means the reigning is actually over the carnal mind. That means it is not killed. It is still reacting. It is still [?violent?]. That is what I mean.

Oh, OK.

            [?Do you understand what I mean?]?

Yes, yes.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yes.

            So when we kill it, when we kill the carnal mind, what are [?we really doing?]?

OK. Well, the Scripture says, and he shall put every enemy under his feet, even the last enemy, which is death. And when he does that, he will offer the whole creation up to the Father, and there shall be no more conflict, you see. That is the glorification. We shall reign over the violence of man after we ascend into the first stage of resurrection, OK. And also, after we ascend into the second stage of resurrection, we are still in this flesh even after the second stage of resurrection, but after glorification, that is the cessation of conflict. There is no more conflict, OK.

I was thinking of this one day. I think I was discussing with someone. It is -- when someone is a drug addict like that or something and he is being cured, to cure him, they would rehabilitate him by using the same drugs he takes, like cocaine. If you want to cure someone [?with cocaine?], it is like they should give him some few doses of cocaine, but it is not in the same amount he normally takes it because he was so used to it. So to actually take [?him out of it is?] -- [?he takes years?] [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. So, actually, he will not just suffer [UNINTELLIGIBLE] and I think -- what do you call this in [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- yes. So what I am saying is, like, we have been so addicted to the carnal mind, so I see it is like the case we have with the carnal mind [?still presenting us?] is, like, the Father has to make it the -- that -- it is like he says let the tares and the wheat grow together. It is like it is -- when the Christ is matured, now you can separate from the carnal mind. I am just asking, is it something like that?

[INAUDIBLE] yes, exactly. Actually [INAUDIBLE] I believe that mankind is so stained with sin -- well, let me say this first. The ultimate purpose of God is to have us completely joined with him, with the Father, completely one with him. But man is so stained with sin that if the Father tried to join with us without a mediator, he would destroy us, so he has raised up a mediator to purify us, to purify the individual, to purify all of humanity, and eventually we will be so purified that we will not need the mediator anymore.

So -- and some people get upset when they hear me say -- nothing upsets you. Some people get upset when they hear that. We will not need the mediator anymore, but the New Testament Scripture is the one that I just quoted. And when the last enemy, even death, is put under, he shall offer up the creation unto the Father. And we found that same principle in the Old Testament. We found it in Isaiah. I have it in the Alternate Translation. Well, at the moment, I do not know which chapter, but if you would like to know, I could find it for you.

We found an Old Testament witness, and when I first read it, I said, no more Jesus Christ? This must be a false interpretation, but the day will come that -- we are being slowly weaned off of sin. That is exactly correct, and the day will come that we will be so purified that there will be no more need for the mediator, you see. It is the same principle working with the fire -- the purifying fires of God, which produce judgment in our life. Nothing can quench the fire which is in Hell. What does that mean? Well, this is Hell, and the fire is of God, and it is the purifying Father. Nothing can stop that because whenever God comes in contact with sin, he burns up sin, so there is only one thing that can quench the fires of Hell, and that is the absence of sin. When there is nothing left to burn, the fires will go out. The -- and what does that mean? The judgment, and it will come to an end. Jesus.

[UNINTELLIGIBLE] it is -- I read these things about this because I have near-death experiences.

You have near-death [?experiences?]?

Yes. And they are [?good spiritual?]. There was a particular one that actually [?says?] that when she go to the spiritual realm, she is so [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- maybe [UNINTELLIGIBLE] just talk about [?on the spiritual realm?] [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. So when go there, she saw that there were, kind of, spirits with the Father, and it is like those spirits decide. She said, the Father y- -- like, sends them to a particular family, but in the whole context, what I saw was, like [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?a predestined?] t- -- group of people that he sends to a particular family because he also [UNINTELLIGIBLE] because it is like the work [?you need them doing their ministry?]. That family has the -- those are the physical [?characteristic?] of [?what the Father needs?], the person for the physical ministry. And she said the spirits come to, like -- just like light shining through the [?cells of the parents?]. They are now -- they have -- like, they are [UNINTELLIGIBLE] in this vision, like, they were quite mature spirits, and they seek to [?come this way?]. And I heard you say [UNINTELLIGIBLE] -- in, like, doing something like that, we are still [?seeds in?] the Father. You s­aid one day that we are [?seeds in the Father?], that we are not -- yes. We are not grown up matured, and there is a Scripture I find, like, in -- it is in Proverbs 8 [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 22. It says, “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there was no depths, I was brought forth; when there no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains” -- this is [?it?]. [?This wisdom talking?]. It says, “When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no mountains [sic] abounding with waters. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills were brought forth. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there; when he set a compass upon the face of the deep: When he established the clouds above with his strengthened -- and strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: When he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, I was one brought up with him: I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” So it is like, in this [?talk here?], it was like the person was matured with the Father [UNINTELLIGIBLE], so I just wanted to ask what you had to say.

Well, first of all, wisdom -- all wisdom is in Christ. This man was made unto us, wisdom, so I believe those Scriptures that you just read are speaking about a preincarnate Christ. And we have to realize that God is so high compared to man that, even in seed form, the Son was way beyond anything we could even imagine, OK.

            [INAUDIBLE]

Yes. You have to raise it up. When we bring it down, it kills us, you know.

[INAUDIBLE] the -- in the spiritual realm, something like that, it is -- what happened -- how does angels [?link to us?] physically? I read a book on  [?angels?] [UNINTELLIGIBLE] angels actually walking through this guy’s room and to sit down and talk. So I want ask [?is?] -- how does angels -- how [UNINTELLIGIBLE], and [?I see it?] [UNINTELLIGIBLE] we are a world ourself. Our physical body is a whole cosmos, something like that. And I see, like, spirits dwell on our inside. I -- so I want to ask, [?is?] -- how is it [INAUDIBLE]

[INAUDIBLE] I believe that -- you mean how do spirits dwell on the inside? Is that what you are asking me? I have a big problem with that. I believe that on faith, and all that I know is that there is no time or space.

Transcribed by Verbal Fusion, 05/27/16

1st Edit 05/27/16 rh