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Comment: You are saying that religion is calling this doctrine a cult, because it is coming across as something that is so new. It is not a cult. Religion is calling it a cult. Religion called deliverance a cult. Religion called the kingdom message a cult. Religion is calling this new doctrine a cult. Religion is calling this deeper spiritual understanding from the Scriptures a cult. Religion is calling it a cult because the carnal mind is not understanding it. I was saying last week that the Lord was showing me what is really coming across. He shows it as a deeper fellowship, which is what it really is. Showing it as fellowship, showing it as sharing, and asking questions, and listening to the answers of the teacher, it is more understandable for the ones who have been scared away, and have a lot of religion in their mind.
Pastor Vitale: Amen. What the Lord has shown me, at least the spiritual root of the reason, why a lot of people think that the spiritual move of God is a cult. They perceive the spiritual moving to be something alien to them. They do not have a revelation that we are manifestations of the living soul. Even those of us that have been baptized with the Holy Spirit, we are still manifestations of the living soul, and we are the direct opposite of Christ. We are the mirror image of God, and when He starts moving by His Spirit, and revealing Himself to us, we, who are members of the living soul, perceive that He is a total different life form than we are. We have a problem realizing that we are the ones that are wicked, and that He is the one that is righteous.
We have manifestations of pride, which all of us have. If we have pride, or self-righteousness, or just lack of understanding, we think that we are okay, especially if we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. We think that we are now righteous, and therefore anyone, or any spirit, or any move of the Spirit, that is different from us, must therefore be unrighteous. But the problem is that, by the grace of God, we must all come to understand that even if we have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, it is the promise of salvation. Yes, we are justified before God. We have become eligible to enter into the presence of God. For what? To be cleansed, and healed, and made in the righteousness of Him, to be made in His image. But we are not in His image now, and we are not righteous now. We have got to be cleansed of our sins. So we are still not like God, but the opposite of God. We, therefore, thinking that we are righteous, perceive His Spirit to be an ungodly spirit. Did I make that clear?
It is really important, because it is happening a lot in the church. It is happening with deliverance ministries, and it is happening with the kingdom message, that the man of God, or the preachers, and women of God, that they perceive something different than their carnal minds has taught them. It is indeed the exact mirror image, the opposite of the carnal message of the church, of the letter of the doctrine in the church. They never stop to say, Lord, could I possibly have a negative doctrine? Is it possible that the Kingdom message is you? I know it is different than what I believe, but they never stop to pray, Lord, could I possibly be wrong? The Kingdom message is positive, and the message of the letter that you are going to burn in hell forever is negative. That is a negative thing to say to somebody. You are so wicked, and if you cannot repent, you are going to burn in hell forever. Maybe the person really cannot repent. What kind of a God is that? I do not know, but my God has the power to grant you repentance. My God has the power to bring you to repentance, that He might purge you, and cleanse you of your sin so that even if there was a hell, where you could burn in forever, which I do not believe, He is all powerful to deliver you from that, and to translate you into the image of His own person, and into the kingdom of His life. He is God. Why would anyone burn in hell forever, when there is a God that has the power to change your wicked heart, and turn it towards Him?
Comment: Would you explain to me what burn in hell forever means, and go back into the Greek.
Pastor Vitale: I will do the best I can off the top of my head. This is not a teaching. This is just conversation. If I am not mistaken, there are three Greek words that are translated hell. One of them was when Jesus used that word, He was referring to the garbage dump outside of town, where they burnt the garbage. What He was saying is that all of your sins and your carnality, it has to be placed on the fire that is going to consume it, because if you are going to be remade or reborn in His image, all the sin and corruption, and fleshiness, and carnality has to be burnt up. Now we know that it is a spiritual burning, and all of our sin and carnality is going to be burnt up by the fire of Almighty God, which is the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the fire of God. We know that God is an all-consuming fire, and we know that He has promised in the prophets to be a fire around us, and a fire within us.
There are many scriptures that talk about God being a fire, that if you read it, and you are an honest person, you would have to admit that it is talking about God. Well, if God is the fire, then to me the hot place is the realm of heaven. Satan and the realm of death and hell, that is the realm of darkness. Darkness refers to cold. Things are cold and dark, or they are hot and light, because the fire makes light. So the carnal mind of man has taken the fire of Almighty God, that will burn us unto perfection, and they have made it an instrument of Satan, but it is a misperception of the Scripture. It is a carnal interpretation of the Scripture. God is the fire. Our true nature is spirit, which is likened unto metal in the Scripture, and metal is not consumed in the fire. It is just purified in the fire. So when Jesus spoke about that Hebrew word translated hell, which referred to the garbage dump, he was talking about everything in humanity that is garbage. Everything that is not spirit, that is not deity, that is not of Him, is garbage. He was telling us it shall be burnt unto your perfection. He is going to burn all the dross off of us.
The second Greek word that is translated hell is one that really means under the ground. It really means underground, hidden, unseen. If you follow that through, with an open heart, our spirit that comes from God, is hidden. Where? It is buried underneath the ground of our human soul, and our human personality, and our human body. It is as if someone never saw a deep sea diver before, and the deep sea diver had all of this heavy garb on, with a hood on his head. If you never saw that before, and you saw him, you would think he was a monster. If you saw someone walking around in a deep sea suit, or in a spacesuit, for example, and if you did not know that, that was a man underneath, and he was just wearing this spacesuit because that is the only way he could survive on the moon, you would go running down the street saying there is a monster out there. Well, we are spirit, and to exist in this world system, we need a spacesuit, or a deep sea diving suit. That is our soul and our body. But when you look at me, or I look at you, what I see is not who you are. You are spirit. We are spirit, and we are buried in the hidden place underneath the earth of our souls and our bodies. Why? Because God has placed us here because He wants to appear in a realm of appearance. He is challenging us to overcome, to rule the carnal personality, and the body of the flesh. We are spirit, but right now our spirit is hidden. In some of us, Christ, our true nature, which is Christ, is coming forth and shining beyond our carnal personality.
There is a third word that means hell, but off the top of my head, I really cannot remember what it is. It is something along these two lines. It means hidden. I am not going to stumble here. I cannot remember what the third word translated hell means.
Comment: Could you explain to me what eternal means in the Greek? Eternal and forever means the same in English, and it meant always. It meant without end, always burning in hell without end. I believe that is the interpretation that most of the church world has, the way I was brought up understanding.
Pastor Vitale: Okay, I can explain that. If I get off the subject, please bring me back. Sometimes I do that. The Greek word translated ever and ever, or forever, or eternal, is the Greek word eon, and it refers to ages. Several words that are translated forever and ever, what it means is for the life of the ages. The age is time. Age is the realm of time. God exists in a place where there is no time. He always was, and He is, and He always shall be, and He changes not. He is God, the same yesterday, today, and forever, but He has formed what we call the ages, which is this realm of appearance. This is the realm of time. We are not the same as we were yesterday. Our body is growing. Hopefully, we are growing spiritually, and maturing emotionally. There is change in the realm of time.
The phrase forever and ever refers to this realm of appearance, the ages, and the Word of God says that they will continue to exist age after age, from age to age, even unto the greatest of ages, the age in the realm of appearance, in which Christ shall appear in the whole human race. That is the age of ages. Concerning this burning forever, if you recall what I said a few minutes ago, the true burning is Christ. See burning is not the devil. The devil is cold. Hell is cold. It is dark. Just look at your natural example, the heat of day is when the sun is at its highest, and the coldest part of the day is at night. God is the fire. God is the light, and the statement that we are going to burn for the life of the ages, what it means is that the fire, or the power, or the life of Almighty God is going to be revealed in this world system, which is now cold, and becoming hot. Christ is going to be revealed through it in every area.
The natural example is the burning bush that Moses saw. Moses said, behold, a bush that burneth, but is not consumed. This world system, the people in it, and the entire world system, are going to be subjected, and are now being subjected to the fire of Almighty God, which is burning away all sin, but our true life substance cannot be burnt, and we will abide in the fire of the life of Almighty God forever and ever, from age unto age, unto age. We are going to stop dying because we are in the fire. The carnal mind says you are going to die because you are going to get thrown in the fire, and you are going to be tortured forever. But the truth is that the fire is God, and when He burns through us, we shall stop dying because His burning shall destroy all sin in us, and that burning, that fire, is His life, which will keep us alive for the life of the ages. The church world, the carnal mind, has got it exactly backwards. Can you hear that? Glory to God.
Comment: Can you tell me what brimstone is?
Pastor Vitale: Again, it would be off the top of my head. We did do a study on that. Brimstone, if I am not mistaken, the Greek word translated brimstone is the word for sulphur. Sulphur, going back generations is always known as a purifying agent; a purifying agent. Fallen man is filled with sin. The heart of man is desperately wicked, and the reality of what is happening right now is that we are being purified by the fire.
Comment: Is that what ignites a fire? Is that what you smell on a match when you light a fire?
Pastor Vitale: I believe so. It is highly inflammable. What lights the fire is the contact of the match to the rough surface, but it is the sulphur that catches, if that is what you mean.
We are being purified, and because man is carnal, and his thinking processes is the carnal mind, he perceives God coming to purify him as an enemy. It is the exact opposite.
Comment: Could this be the same torment that is talking about when a person is thrown into the fire, and shall be tormented night and day, like the Bible says? Is this the same torment of being tormented in the presence of the Lamb?
Pastor Vitale: Well it is, but we have to understand what that means. I have looked that word torment up in the Greek, I believe, and please, anyone reading this message, this is off the top of my head, and I could make a mistake. If you want to talk to me about it, you can, but do not get rattled if I make a mistake. I am just a human being. I believe that word torment is the same Greek word that is translated tribulation. If you do a word study on that Greek word, what it is really saying is that it means to be forced into a narrow place. I am thinking of a lump of clay. Did any of you ever make cookies? You put the cookie dough in a container, turn the knob, and the cookie dough is squeezed out into the form that you want it to be squeezed out into. Years ago, we used to just make a cone out of wax paper, and squeeze the icing out, to make decorations like little flower buds on the cake. The soul of man is being squeezed into the image of God, and it is painful. But when the pain is over, it is going to be glorious, just like you have a beautiful cake after the icing is squeezed through. You have a beautiful cake with flower buds and leaves, and words. The soul of man is being squeezed into the image of God, and that phrase that you just mentioned, that they will be tormented forever and ever, what it means is that our souls shall be in the image of God for the life of the ages. Hallelujah. We are going to be contained. We are going to be squeezed into the image of Christ, which means what? We will become incapable of sin, and the power of Almighty God in His Son, Jesus Christ, shall keep us that way for the life of the ages. We will never be able to get out of His image again, whereby we would start sinning, and dying again.
Comment: That is the state of being tormented, being in pain?
Pastor Vitale: No, that is the carnal mind’s translation of that Greek word. It is not going to be painful.
Comment: So they did not translate it correctly in the English?
Pastor Vitale: No, they did not translate it correctly. It means to be forced into the image. It means to go down under. Jesus Christ, right now, is in the process of laying hold of our adamic soul, his wife, and putting it under his submission, putting it down, because the living soul is ruling. We all know that there is a spiritual authority, and the man must rule. The woman must come into her proper place as exhibited in Revelation, Chapter 12.
Comment: You said we are not going to be tormented in this submission.
Pastor Vitale: No, it is the exact opposite. Our torment is when we are out of submission. Although the process, by which Jesus brings us into submission can be painful, but that is just because sin is ruling and reigning in our mind. But it is worth it, because this process that is bringing us into submission, shall yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness forever and ever. We suffer for a short season. I cannot quote this exactly, but Paul said, I do not even count it seriously, the pain that I am going through now, because of the glory that is awaiting me in the life where I am joined to Jesus Christ totally. The Scripture likens it to having a baby. It is painful to have a baby. No woman that has given birth to a child would tell you that, that is not true. It is painful giving birth. It is a labor, and it is stressful, but when it is over, we have a child, and it is worth it. It is worth it. Glory to God. It is worth it. Hallelujah.
Just trust Him. It is like a pregnant woman going to her doctor, and saying, Doctor, I just trust you. Help me through this labor. If we could just lay all our cares upon Jesus, understanding what he is doing, that he is birthing his life in us, and that we shall be saved by the birth of his son in us. Work with him, and you will get through it. We are going to live in glory for the life of the ages. Paul said, eye has not seen, and you have not heard what the Lord has in store for us. It is going to be glorious. We shall burn forever and ever in the glory of his life, which will prevent sin from ever raising up its head again. It is a preservative fire. It is not a fire that is going to give us pain. It is a preservative fire. It keeps sin away forever. Hallelujah.
Songs sung by Rita and accompanied by her guitar: I am learning to lean and depend on Jesus. He is my friend. He is my guide. I am learning to lean and depend on Jesus. I found out that if I trust him, he will provide. I am learning to lean and depend on Jesus.
What a fellowship, what a joy I have leaning on the everlasting arms. What a blessedness, what a peace of mind, leaning on the everlasting arms. Leaning on Jesus, safe and secure from all alarm, leaning on Jesus, leaning on the everlasting arms. What have I to dread, and what have I to fear, leaning on the everlasting arms. I have blessed peace with my Lord so near me, leaning on the everlasting arms.
He brought me out of the miry clay. He sets my feet on a Rock to stay. He put a song in my heart today, a song of praise. Hallelujah.
This is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it. This is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it. This is the day that the Lord has made. Jesus is the way that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it.
I know the Lord will make a way for me. If I live a holy life, shun the wrong, and do the right, I know the Lord will make a way for me. I know the Lord will make a way for you. If you live a holy life, shun the wrong, and do the right, I know the Lord will make a way for you.
Comment: What is meant by being tormented in the presence of the Lamb? Is it because he is so perfect and we are not?
Pastor Vitale: No, if you remember what I said earlier, the Greek word translated torment really means to be forced into something. It implies a glob of clay that is now being formed. It is the pressure that is applied as you are being shaped into the image of Christ. As for being tormented in the presence of the Lamb, what that means is that when Christ is conceived in you, and starts growing up towards full stature in you, his very presence will be convicting you of sin, and forcing your soul into his righteous image. So to be tormented in the presence of the Lamb means that his presence, Jesus’ presence, in your life, and in your own soul, is happening. Jesus said, you are the salt of the earth. As Jesus comes forth in your own soul, he becomes the salt or the preservative of your earth. He becomes the factor that will keep you alive and stop you from dying. The way this works is that he keeps your soul from sinning. His presence will stop your soul from sinning. How? By burning up all of the sin, and forming you into his righteous image, and his very presence will keep you righteous for the life of the ages.
After all the sin is cleansed and burnt away, that which is really you, your soul, that part of your soul that has been formed into righteousness, will remain righteous, because Jesus Christ, in you, will burn forever in your very being. Being tormented in the presence of the Lamb means, number one, Christ is present in you. Number two, your soul is being forced to a position of righteousness. Why? Because Christ is present in you, and torment in the presence of the Lamb for the life of the ages means that you will stop dying, because Jesus Christ, the preservative of your own soul, shall prevent you from sinning, so that you might live for the life of the ages. That is what being tormented in the presence of the Lamb means.
Comment: I guess it is not the same meaning where Scripture says fear has torment. It is not the same torment then, is it?
Pastor Vitale: I have not looked the word up, but I am sure that it cannot possibly be the same word.
Comment: I heard someone say, how could you be tormented in the presence of the Lamb? A lamb is so gentle and nice. How could you be tormented in the presence of a lamb? If it was something that would be scary to you, it is understandable because fear has torment, but how could you be tormented in the presence of a lamb?
Pastor Vitale: It is a big problem, brethren. We have to have an awareness that the King James translators did not have any spiritual revelation. There is a big inconsistency in the King James Translation. They will take one Greek or Hebrew word, and if you study it throughout the whole Scripture, you will find it translated three, four, or five different ways.
Comment: What is the word for torment in the Greek?
Pastor Vitale: Which torment do you mean? Is it the torment that is associated with the Lamb or being tormented night and day forever? I do not know the different Greek words, but all that I could tell you is that it is the Greek word that means to be forced into his image. It is the Greek word that means, if you study it out to its root, it is the Greek word that means to go down under. It is talking about the procedure by which Christ, who has been conceived in you, is forcing Adam to a position of submission underneath Christ, whereby he will stop sinning, and become righteous, and stop dying. I do not know the exact Greek words off the top of my head.
Comment: Is Adam going to be cast into outer darkness?
Pastor Vitale: No, Adam is going to be cast into the lake of fire. Glory to God. Now remember, outer darkness is really the real hell. It is the hell that is dark and cold. It is the realm of the carnal mind.
Comment: It sounds like you are saying Adam is to be forced into the lake of fire. But what is meant by being cast out into outer darkness, and tormented night and day? What does that mean?
Pastor Vitale: To my knowledge, there is no scripture that says you will be tormented night and day if you are cast into outer darkness. It says you shall be cast into outer darkness, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Outer darkness is the farthest place away from the fire of God. It is dark and it is cold, and it is the realm of the carnal mind.
Comment: The verse that says tormented night and day forever, what is it referring to if it is not referring to outer darkness?
Pastor Vitale: I do not know of any scripture that links the two. I think the scripture is fear has torment. There are scriptures in the Old Testament that talk about the ungodly being fearful. I do not recall it being related to any of these other New Testament scriptures. It could be. We are just having a discussion here. The outer darkness is a place where your spirit and your soul is as far away from Christ as it could be. It is referring to carnality. That account, being as far away from God as possible, is being under the dominion of Adam, who is ruled by the unconscious mind.
Comment: The thought of the body actually being thrown into hell is really a carnal mind thinking, because if it is actually a real fire, it would destroy the body, if it was a real body. If it was a carnal body, and a real carnal hell, it would not last there.
Pastor Vitale: How could you burn forever and ever? Even that, in itself, is a witness that it must be a spiritual fire. You would die if you get thrown into a real fire.
Comment: What about the scripture that says, do not fear the man that can kill the body, but fear him who can cast both soul and body into hell?
Pastor Vitale: Jesus is saying, do not worry about the natural man that can kill your body, but fear Almighty God, who has the power to burn the dross off of you. He is saying respect me. I am the one that has the power to change you from being a sinner to being righteous. Do not fear the natural man. You see, the carnal mind, right away, translates it negatively. They think that Jesus is saying, fear the one that can cast you into torment forever and ever. But Jesus is not saying that. First of all, the word fear means to respect. He is saying, do not exalt the man that can kill you. Do not worship man. That is what he is saying. Exalt, respect me, the one who is going to deliver you out of this realm of death that you are living in. See, Jesus is not saying be afraid of me because I can really punish you.
Comment: Jesus said, fear him who can cast both soul and body into hell. It is God who would do that. What does it mean the soul and body being cast into hell?
Pastor Vitale: Now remember the Greek word translated hell means to be hidden, to be under the ground. Jesus said, cast your soul into hell, refers to casting your soul underneath the ground. Our soul is buried underneath the ground of this body. He is talking about the carnal realm.
Comment: The natural people are going to think you mean the ground that you walk on.
Pastor Vitale: Right, they think it is the ground of this natural earth. Our true nature is buried under our spiritual being, under this gross body.
Comment: This body is that earth, so he may have done that.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, this body is that earth. Amen. Well, he has already done it.
Comment: What does it mean by the body being cast into hell?
Pastor Vitale: I have not looked that up. Off the top of my head, I would say this. If the body was cast into hell, what he is talking about is this realm of appearance, which is hell. We are down here. Our soul is down here, and our body is down here. Unless Jesus is quickening us, our spirit is down here under the ground of this world system. We are not in the garden of Eden. We are not in the heaven of God. He is saying, fear the one who can cast your body and your soul into hell. He has already done it. When Adam and Eve sinned, it was God Almighty that cast the creation down to hell. We fell. If we would just think about this, if we would just try to open our mind, and say, look Lord, if this is really the truth, let me hear it. It really makes sense. Most people would admit we are a fallen creation. What does fallen mean? It means to come down. We are in hell now. We were in heaven, and God cast the whole creation down into hell. Soul and body came down into hell. We are down here now. In that scripture, the Lord is not threatening to do it in the future. He is saying to them, I have already done it. I am the one that cast you down here, and I am the one that has the power to raise you back up. Do not worship man. Do not respect man. Respect me, honor me. I am the one that put you in this condition. Do not give Satan the glory. Do not say that Satan is going to put you in hell or Satan can do this to you. I cast you into hell. God did it. God did it. He will give His glory to none other.
Comment: Respecting and fearing man would be the same thing as treading Christ underfoot. The thought is you are denying Christ if you are respecting them, because they do not want you to exalt Christ.
Pastor Vitale: Treading Christ underfoot has already happened, if you are giving Satan the power that he does not have. Satan is God’s servant. He is God’s enforcer, and he cannot do anything that God does not give him permission to do.
Comment: Man wants the glory, and they do not want you to exalt Christ. Jesus is saying, do not be afraid of them, even if they kill you physically. Because you will not deny Jesus in front of them, they may kill you physically, but he said do not be afraid of them. Fear God instead.
Pastor Vitale: Fear God. Do not fear anybody, but God.
Comment: That is the way I first heard that particular verse. With the understanding of what you are saying hell is, I understand it a little bit differently, but it still means the same, to not fear man, but fear God.
Pastor Vitale: It is also important that we realize that, that word really does not mean fear, as we would know it in this society. If someone said to me in New York, you are afraid, that would mean to me that you are experiencing a fearful, uncomfortable feeling. But in that scripture, the word really means reverence and respect. Throughout the scriptures, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, it means that. In the Old Testament there is a scripture that says, if a prophet prophesy, and what he prophesies comes to pass, fear him. I questioned the Lord about that. Why should you be afraid of the prophet? The Lord said, what that means is respect him, because I am speaking through him. Give him respect, and honor, and acknowledge him as a servant of God. Jesus said, fear me, or fear the one that can cast you down to hell. He has already done this. He has cast the whole creation down. Jesus really means respect and honor me because there is a great disrespect for Jesus Christ and his Father, all across the Christian world.
It is bad enough when the heathens do not acknowledge Him, but there is a great disrespect for Him, even in Christianity. A lot of the mainline denominations are exalting the humanism doctrines. There are all kinds of disrespect for Jesus in the earth today. You know what the greatest disrespect for Jesus is? It is moving under an anointing that is given by the adamic carnal mind, and saying that it is God. That is the greatest disrespect. Do not exalt man in your own mind, but exalt God. Respect God. When you speak, let your words be of Christ. If there is sin in your heart, and the Lord reveals it to you, call it what it is. Confess it to your Savior, and ask him for deliverance. Just about everything that Jesus said can be taken on many levels. The deepest level is within our own hearts, but it is also true for people in the mainline denominations, and in the world at large. A lot of new Christians can only look away from them. They can only look at what is happening in the world around them. As we mature, the Lord requires us to look within, and to apply all these scriptures to the man within us, because we are two men, once we receive Christ.
Comment: Death and hell are going to be totally done away with in the lake of fire. Right? Then what happens? Is it consumed? Is it destroyed?
Pastor Vitale: They are going to be cast into the lake of fire. It does say they will be destroyed, but if you look up the Greek word that means destroyed, what it really means is to be changed into another form. In this world nothing is destroyed. If you burn something, it just changes its form. If you burn it a piece of wood, you wind up with ashes, and a whole bunch of gases that escape into the atmosphere. Nothing is destroyed. It just changes form. Fire is the substance that will cause it to really change its form. Most things, if you want to change their form immediately, you burn it, and it is in a new form. You could cut a tree down, and make planks out of it, and build a house, but that is a long process. If you have got something in your hands, and you want to change its form right away, you burn it. The fire of God is the element that changes our form. We are unrighteous, and we are being made righteous.
Comment: What does lake mean in the Greek?
Pastor Vitale: This is a personal word of the Lord to me concerning lake. The Greek word translated lake simply means lake. But I sought the Lord for a long time as to what that meant. This is His personal word to me. He said, Sheila, what is a lake? I said, well Lord, it is a body of water that is surrounded by land, so that the land gives form to the water, whether it is long, or short, or wide. It is the land surrounding the water that shapes the water. Can you say amen to that? He said to me, well Sheila, in the Scripture, water typifies soul. He said, it is your soul, or it is the soul of man that is being formed by this body. See, there is a soul in me, and it is locked up inside of this body. My body is the land around my soul. It is this body that is giving form to my soul. Now in the case of the lake of fire, the soul is typified by fire, so that could not be my adamic soul because fire is one of God’s manifestations. I am going to suggest to you that in the lake of fire, it is the soul of Christ that is burning inside of a man. Somebody who is standing in full stature is a manifestation of the lake of fire. Even if you are not standing in full stature, if you have Christ in you, and he is manifesting through you, for that moment, you are the lake of fire, the soul of Christ, that is burning within the confines of your body.
Comment: That means that if you come into full stature, you will be the same as the lake of fire. We will be a lake of fire, and others who are carnal are going to be afraid of this in their minds.
Pastor Vitale: Amen, we will be one with the lake of fire. Yes, they will be terrified, and they do not even know why. They do not even know why.
Comment: That is because they are still carnal. Even if they have the definition that the lake of fire is not what they used to think it was in their carnal mind, they would still be afraid.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, simply because the soul man is afraid of Christ. Why? Because on some level, conscious or unconscious, the soul man or Adam, the corporate Adam, the many membered Adam, whose unconscious mind is Satan, he knows that this all-consuming fire is coming upon every member of the living soul. Eventually, the soul of Christ is going to totally absorb the adamic soul, and life as we now know it, shall cease to exist. The whole creation, the whole of humanity, which is really one, shall have been brought into total submission to Christ, and will no longer be able to go his own way. In his heart, he is afraid because his freedom is coming to an end. He is going to have to take the place that God has allotted to him in the creation.
Satan’s job, in this whole creation, is to give the creation form. His job is to give the creation form, but he cannot be ruling, you see. There is a place for the woman in the marriage, but she cannot be ruling her husband in a natural marriage. The woman has to submit to her husband. There is a place for her. Thank God for women, for mothers, and for wives. But you cannot become the man, because when you become the man, your husband automatically becomes the wife, and you are out of order, and your marriage and your family cannot be blessed. It is impossible. That is what happened to the living soul. The living soul is God’s wife, but she has been out there doing her own thing, totally ignoring her husband, doing whatever she wants. Now the time is that Jesus Christ, the bridegroom, is coming to bring her into her proper place. He is the boss.
Comment: Adam knows that he is going to be brought under submission. If he knows that he has no choice, I would think that he would want to just get it over with, and just let go.
Pastor Vitale: Well, for your natural example, look at Saddam Hussein. There is no way the man could win this war, and he will not give up. He will not give up. This is a mentality that we see in a lot of people across the world. They would rather go down fighting, then give up. I am suggesting to you that, that is the attitude of the living soul, which is Adam, whose unconscious mind is Satan. He will not give up. He will fight; kick; yell; scream; and fight in every way he knows how until the last second that Jesus puts him down under his authority.
Comment: Does Hussein really know inside of himself that he is not going to win?
Pastor Vitale: I think the man knows, but his pride will not let him stop. It is bad enough if the man decides to die himself, and in his mind, die with honor, but this man is taking his whole country down with him, women and children, and innocent people. In his mind he believes this is dying with honor. He is taking his whole country with him. I suggest to you, that Adam, who is ruled by Satan, will not give up and lose his honor. To the best of his ability, if God would let him, he would take the whole human race down with him.
Comment: He is fighting for his god, which is himself. The first thing that Hussein said was, fight for Allah, and fight for the country, and for what they believe. That is sad. Over the radio, he is telling everybody in Iraq to fight for Allah. He is telling them to fight for a false god. That is terrible, leading them all in a wrong way. God knows he is going to bring it down. He is going to destroy it.
Pastor Vitale: Hussein is a real type of what is happening in Adam’s mind right now. He knows his days are numbered. Do you have another song for us?
Songs sung by Rita accompanied by her guitar: Jesus is my savior, I shall not be moved. In his love and favor, I shall not be moved, just like a tree planted by the waters, I shall not be moved.
I will bless the Lord at all times. His praise shall continually be in my mouth. My soul shall make her boast in thee, Lord. O magnify the Lord with me. I sought the Lord, and he heard me, and delivered me from my fears.
Comment: This is a good time to seek the Lord for deliverance from fears, especially in this hour that we are living in, with everything that is going on in the world.
Pastor Vitale: The Lord gave me the scripture this week that the horse is prepared for battle, but safety is of the Lord. I am very aware that the whole world is in such a turmoil right now. Yet I feel safer than I have ever felt. I know that, that safety is in His Spirit, in His soul. All fear is in our adamic soul. We have got to get out of Adam, and into Christ.
Comment: Even the fear of hell is rooted in the adamic soul. A lot of people, probably have that fear rooted deep within them, especially if they have been brought up in that religion. I just wonder how many of our troops go through that fear of death. Why? Underneath, is it a fear of meeting God, fear of going to hell, or what other fear? It could be more than just a fear of pain or death.
Pastor Vitale: I think it is Adam’s fear of losing his ability to manifest. Think of a woman that is really liberated. She is doing everything a liberated woman would like to do. For example, take the women’s movements today that are really being threatened with legislation that would curtail abortion. There are strong groups in the country today, going into the courts, trying to make abortion illegal. A lot of women’s rights groups are panicking because, at least, some of the liberty that they have gained, is about to be taken away from them. We know the living soul is female in relationship to God, and she is a real liberated woman. She is out here doing whatever she wants, and her husband has come home. Jesus is saying to her soul, you are not going to go out and do whatever you want, but you are going to acknowledge me as your husband, as your Lord, as your Savior, and you are coming into submission. You cannot do these things anymore.
Adam is really frightened over it. You watch these liberated women on the TV talking against legislators that want to restrict abortions. If you really look into their hearts with spiritual discernment, they are scared. They are scared that there is an attempt to take their freedom away from them. I think lots of times when we feel fear, especially as we get spiritual, it may not even be our fear. I know I have gone before the Lord many times, and I have said, Lord, there is no reason for me to be afraid. Why am I feeling fear? He said, you are feeling Adam’s fear. That is because Christ in me is being exalted, and I am being brought into submission, and I desire to be submissive and obedient. So my heart is with Jesus, and Adam is being put down under the feet of Christ, and he is very afraid at the loss of his freedom in me.
Comment: So a lot of our emotions are actually Adam. It is not the true us in Christ. It is Adam in us.
Pastor Vitale: We are not Adam, we are Christ.
Comment: But Christ does have emotions, right? The Holy Ghost, in us, does cry at times, and laughs with joy, and has emotions.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, but there is no torment in Christ. There is no fear in Christ. There is joy in Christ, tears of joy, emotions of joy, compassion and love.
Comment: Compassion. Jesus wept.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, and all of the fruits of the Spirit are in Christ, but no torment, no fear or torment.
Comment: Do you have any comments on that verse that says Jesus wept, in John 11:35? Who did Jesus weep for at the time when Mary said, if you had been here, my brother would not have died?
Pastor Vitale: I believe Jesus cried because her carnality was such a grief unto him. The Holy Ghost can be grieved. I think Jesus perceived that all things are possible in him, in the Father, and here is this woman, who was his personal student, who did not understand that Jesus had the power to raise her brother from the dead. The reason she did not understand was because the condition of her mind was that she was living out of Adam. She was not living out of Christ. To live out of Adam is to be in the cold place, in the dark place, in the place that is far away from the thoughts of the mind of God. That is a pretty terrible place to be in, and Jesus cried for her.
Comment: Did he cry for her because of her condition that he felt for her, or did he cry because he was grieved at her unbelief?
Pastor Vitale: I have trouble separating the two. If she had studied under him, and was his personal friend, one would hope that she would be, at least in some measure, moving in his mind. So she was in Adam, she was in hell, and she did not believe. All those three things say to me that she was not in his mind. I understand your question, but I have trouble separating her doubt and unbelief, and her being in the carnal mind, because all doubt and unbelief is in the carnal mind. Truth, understanding, and belief is in Christ. Am I making any sense?
Comment: Yes, but is there a difference between the Holy Ghost crying for someone because they feel sorry for them, versus being grieved at their sin?
Pastor Vitale: Oh, there must be a difference. Well, all lack of faith is sin. Again, it is all the same thing. Everything that is not of Christ is sin. It is all the same thing, maybe on different levels. I cannot tell you exactly why Jesus was crying, but it is all pretty much the same.
Comment: Let me hear what you have to say about this. One sister heard my story that I was with someone, and I felt like I was falling into sin with that person, but I was not sure. I am wondering now if my emotion was me or was it the Holy Ghost. Did my adamic mind judge it as something that it was not? I had thought it is just my feelings, because I had felt rejected so long in the relationship, and that God was just bringing out the tears, because all of a sudden we were being reconciled. When I was speaking to the sister about it, she said it could have been that the Holy Ghost was grieved at what you were doing right then.
Pastor Vitale: Well, it is possible, but I really do not know. If I do not hear anything from the Lord, I would not want to answer you out of my carnal mind. I will say this. It is possible to cry in the Holy Ghost. There is a scripture that says you can sorrow unto repentance. You can be in the Holy Ghost. You can be crying tears of joy, tears of relief, and there is also a sorrow in the Holy Ghost that is Godly, in that it leads to repentance. But once it crosses over the line, and starts condemning you, it is no longer God. Then it is Adam. Tears of condemnation are not of God.
Comment: So it is okay to start out as a cry in the Holy Ghost, even at the same sitting, and cross the line.
Pastor Vitale: Absolutely. That is where a lot of believers get messed up. Something gets in their mind, and they know it is God, and they run with it, and somewhere along the line, Jesus says, that is enough, and they do not hear him, and they are still continuing to do what they started to do. They did not hear Jesus say stop, and as soon as he withdraws, now they are doing it in their adamic soul, and it becomes sin. By the grace of God we must learn to follow the cloud, to discern the Spirit. The Spirit is typified as a winding river, when the river turns, we have to be able to turn with the river.
That is what happens to a lot of ministries. Christ is really in it. The ministry is really anointed, and you come back a year later, and there is no anointing in the services at all. What happened? The Lord took a turn, and they did not follow him. Why? Maybe he told them to shut down the building, and they could not believe it was God. Maybe He told them to go into deliverance, and they could not believe it was God. Maybe it was like that sister you were telling me about the other night. God told her not to be an evangelist and get a big name, but to go out into the streets, and preach to the homeless and the destitute. She did it, and there is some anointing on her ministry. Now if she did not do it, if she had said, oh no, that cannot be God. I am going to be an evangelist, and I am going to get a big building, and I am going to get a big name. If she had said look at how anointed I am, she may have lost her anointing, but the river took a turn, and she turned with the river, and that is some anointing on her. Praise God.
If you want to keep the anointing, people, follow Jesus. If the anointing goes one way, and you go another way, that is it. Do you want to know what happened to the anointing? He went left and you went right. He zigged and you zagged. If you had the anointing at one time, and you do not have it now, there is a good chance that is what happened. You could not perceive the river bending, and you kept going straight. There is a very high price to pay in following Jesus. A lot of Christians, if they are not really trained up properly, they will say the Lord just could not be asking me to do that. Oh really? God is not religious, and He will ask you to give up things that are very dear to you. He will give it back to you in due season, but He wants you to prove your obedience and your love for Him. There are things that He will ask you to give up. He does do that.
Comment: Testing to the maxim. It is just like Abraham and Isaac, right?
Pastor Vitale: Testing to the maxim. If you have any hope or desire of piercing through into his soul, and having Christ stand up in full stature in you, and you think that he is not going to ask a sacrifice of you, you are really mistaken. That mistake, if it does not get corrected in your mind, could hinder you from entering in. If you do not believe me, pray about it. He will not give his glory to another. He will not.
Comment: He usually zeroes in on the things that are most dear to you.
Pastor Vitale: Absolutely. Absolutely. When you come to a place where you can give it up, where you do give it up, sometimes He gives it back to you, but sometimes He does not. So when you are giving something up for God, if you believe God has asked you to give something up, and you are giving it up, you have to give it to Him totally. You cannot give it to Him, saying, well maybe He will give it back to me. That is a mindset that will get you in trouble with God. You have to give it up totally, and say, your will, Lord, not mine. Whatever He does, He does, and just go on with your life and serving Him.
Comment: When I woke up this morning, I heard that we were going to climb up a mountain of God this morning. I’m thinking, does it have to do with our own Isaacs? Is He saying today that we are required to give up our Isaacs?
Pastor Vitale: Just this morning? Oh, praise God. Oh, I am sure He is requiring that of us. He has been saying that to me for years.
Comment: Well, I know He has been doing that with me for years, but I thought it meant the mountain of God in the sense of Zion. I guess it does mean that, but it also means laying it on the altar to Him.
Pastor Vitale: He has spoken to me about mountains. He showed me where I am, how far up I am on the mountain of God. Of course, to be at the top of the mountain, to me it implies Christ in full stature. When someone attains to the top of the mountain, Christ is appearing in them in full stature. You do not get to the top of the mountain in one jump. It is a journey. It is a process. Depending on how willing you are to submit to being squeezed into His image, the process can be slow or faster.
Songs sung by Rita accompanied by her guitar: He delivered me from my strong enemy, from them which hated me. They were too strong for me, and they prevented me in the day of my calamity. But the Lord was my stay because He is my Rock. He is my fortress and my deliverer. He is my God. He is my strength, He is my God, in whom I trust. He is my buckler and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. He is my Rock. He is my fortress, and my deliverer.
Thou, O Lord, shall endure forever, and thy mercy unto all generations. Thou shall arise and have mercy unto Zion. Thou shall arise and have mercy unto Zion. For the time to favor her is come. Yea, the set time has come.
He makes the clouds His chariots, and He walks upon the wings of the wind, and in Him there is no shadow of turning. He is forever the same. He makes the clouds His chariots, and He walks upon the wings of the wind, and in Him there is no shadow of turning. Yes, He is forever the same.
I will arise and go forth in the name of the Lord above, for He has conquered every foe, by His name, by His name. I will declare you are my Lord, and in you I am not afraid. I will arise and go forth in His name, in His name.
Pastor Vitale: There is such a peace. There is peace in His Spirit. Hallelujah. Glory to God. There is life in His Spirit, true life, not the existence of this carnal realm, but true life and righteousness. A forgiving Godly heart towards your brethren, a heart that blesses, and does not curse, there is life in that.
Songs sung by Rita, accompanied by her guitar: How, O Lord, art thou above all the earth. Thou art exalted far above all gods. Thou, O Lord, on high, above all the earth. Thou art exalted far above all gods. We exalt thee, we exalt thee, we exalt thee, O Lord, we exalt thee. We exalt thee, we exalt thee, O Lord.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your presence, and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, and renew a right spirit within me.
Oh, the Spirit of the Lord is here. I can feel His presence ever so near. As we lift Him up in worship and praise, as we magnify His Holy Name, He will touch you, if you only believe. Open up your hearts, and now receive, as He looks down on you, for the Spirit of the Lord is here.
To be like Jesus, to be like Jesus, all I ask is to be like Him. All through life’s journey, from earth to glory, all I ask is to be like Him. To be like Jesus, to be like Jesus, all I ask is to be like Him.
I am God that healeth thee. I am the Lord, your healer. I have sent my word and I healed your disease. You are the God that healeth me. You are the Lord, my healer. You sent your word and you healed my disease. You are the Lord, my healer.
07/02/14 Transcribed by MJS
07/30/14 1st Edit MJS/BP/CAS