The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For
Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By
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I have had a couple of experiences where I have heard people’s thoughts. At first it is shocking because you do not expect to hear people’s thoughts. You just expect to hear their words. It is very exciting to me what you just said. I cannot remember how you expressed it, but the Lord quickened to me, while you were saying it, that words are not the reality. The thought is the reality. Even Jesus said, lf you look after that woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery in your heart. I never quite thought of it that way, that the voice box really is not necessary, except for fallen creatures, like humanity. We are fallen, and we are not spiritual, except in some cases where witchcraft is prevailing. Therefore we need voice boxes to project the thought, but the reality is the thought. As we get spiritual, we will lose all need for voice boxes. Can you imagine coming to the place where we can hear whole sentences, and whole conversations, from one another without speaking a word?
Comment: This could mean that there is no time or space in the spirit too. We can hear it, like in this situation where we were sitting right next to a lady, and lt just vibrated right out of her. Maybe, if we get spiritual, we can feel that vibration coming from all the lies, where you hear it, and there is no time or space in the spirit.
Pastor Vitale: Well, I have experienced that. As a matter of fact, I was praying about a situation like that this morning.
There is a woman that I know, and over a period of the last few weeks, I have been seeing her in the spirit, and she is crying and complaining to God. I could not hear any words. I could just see her, but from what I saw, she was unhappy about something that was happening. She was complaining to God saying, more or less, why me, or how come, or I do not think it should be this way. It was that kind of complaining. In my prayer time this morning, I said to the Lord, how do you want me to pray for this woman? Does her complaining have anything to do with me? Is it a personal problem? What do you want me to pray? Lord, would you let me know what she is saying to you? About an hour later I was no longer in prayer, and her thoughts came into my mind. I said to the Lord, Lord, is this happening now? Will it happen in the future? I believe that you told me what her petition or complaint is to you. I still ask you how I should pray about it, but I am curious to know if this is happening now, or am I seeing the future? He did not answer me.
He is still teaching me, and I am still learning about this manifestation, but what you said really touched me. I know what you said is not in this message, but what you said was that you heard her thoughts, and the sound of her thoughts was just a shade off from the sound of her words. There was a subtle difference. Is that not what you said? Yes, He showed you the subtle difference, and it was slightly muffled. The first time that I ever heard anybody’s thoughts, that I was aware of it, God had given me a job, and this man gave me a very hard time from the day that he hired me. There was a woman working in the same office who had wanted this job in the form of a promotion, but the boss did not promote her. He said, you stay where you are, and he hired me for the higher position. She was talking against me all the time. Her motive was to get him to fire me. He gave me a very hard time. He was without mercy. Everybody makes mistakes, but every time I made a mistake, he really blew it up.
This was funny. I was working as a legal secretary, and I had made an appointment for him, and put it in his diary. It is a book that has a page for every day of the year, and it is called a diary. When I wrote the appointment in the diary, I put it on the wrong page. Let us say it should have been on the 19th of February and I put it on the 20th of February. Somehow, I made a mistake. It was not an appointment before a judge. It was not anything that terrible. Well, of course, I made the mistake, and I had to repent of it. It was not a trial or anything that was terrible, but this man called up, and said, where are you? My boss had to say my secretary put it in the wrong day, so they made another appointment. It was no big deal. Well, he really came down on me badly for this. Within two days, this judgment fell on him. He made a record in his own diary for an appointment with a judge, and he put it on the wrong day. The Lord wanted me to hear it. He did not make this phone call from his private office.
He sat down at the desk next to me, to talk to someone. I heard him say, I had an appointment with Judge so and so, and I put it down on the wrong day, and the judge was really mad. So the Lord showed him that it was something that anybody could do. To get back to the point, he decided to fire me over this. He called me into his office to dictate something. He was sitting behind his desk, and I was sitting on a chair, looking down at my pad. I heard him say, as clear as could be, I am going to fire her. I jerked my head up, and I looked at him. His eyes were down, and he was writing without looking at me. I just knew that I had heard his thoughts. That was the first time that I was aware of experiencing it. I believe I have been hearing people’s thoughts for a long time, but I did not understand what was going on. I agree with you that the voice is just a shade off, like it is coming from behind a wall, slightly muffled, but very clear.
Comment: They are the one that is putting up the wall, while they are not saying it to you.
Pastor Vitale: He did not want me to know because he was being very sneaky about it. He was not being honest about it. He started interviewing other secretaries, and it was his intention to fire me with no notice or severance pay, but God exposed him, and embarrassed him, and did not let him do it. The Scripture says nothing shall be hidden. Can you imagine a world where everybody hears everybody’s thoughts?
Comment: The Bible says Jesus perceived the thoughts of the Pharisees. He knew what they were thinking. We are going to know what people are thinking as we ascend in Christ, but we are not always going to reveal them. For instance, like with this woman, it really shocked her, and it made her scared of me. She was very afraid afterwards. If this starts to reveal their hearts, it is scary. I think what happens is when someone’s heart is revealed, if they will not face it as being in their own heart, they perceive the other person as being evil. Right?
Pastor Vitale: Oh definitely.
Comment: She perceived something evil about me, and she got up and left as soon as possible.
Pastor Vitale: I have an opinion about that. Can I tell you what I think? You had said to me before the message that you were just looking at her little boy. People look at children, and people look at each other all the time, but I really think Christ was looking at the child. I really think that if this woman were here, and if she was honest, somehow the Lord is calling her, and telling her to educate that child in God, and her heart is hard towards the Lord. She does not want to do it. You, with Christ in you, sat down and looked at the child. Now you did not know why you were doing it, but on some level, she felt convicted that she is not bringing that little boy to church. That anger was against the Lord, whether it was in her conscious or her unconscious mind. She perceived Christ in you, and she perceived the conviction, and her response to it was, I reject the word of the Lord. I am righteous, and you must be an evil woman.
Comment: I believe that was what happened. It is obvious to me as you are talking about it. She was saying, excuse me to the Lord. The Lord must have been talking to her heart, and she knew. She knew her god, which was money, was right in front of her.
Pastor Vitale: How interesting. You said she was sitting there counting her money when you walked over. Maybe she was working on Sundays, and could not take the boy to church, or working nights. She had some excuse for not taking the boy to church.
Comment: I did not know it was that deep. Since it came out of the deep in her mind, it must have been pretty deep.
Pastor Vitale: Now there is one thing that I do not understand, and I do not know the answer. Sometimes, when I talk about things, especially when we are doing a message, the Lord gives me the answer as I ask the question, so I am going to put this in the message. If the Lord is going to open people’s minds to us, and we are going to hear what they are saying, almost as loudly as if they were speaking it, what is going to happen if we start hearing everybody’s voice? What if you walked down the walkway of the Mall with a hundred people there, and you started hearing everybody’s voice? It would be a whole bunch of noise. How are we going to separate out which voice belongs to who, or what we are hearing? It could have a very ungodly effect on our mind if we are trying to go to sleep at night, and we are hearing voices of the whole country, or the whole world, or the whole church.
Comment: As you are saying that, I just wonder if we are going through that even now, and we are not perceiving it.
Pastor Vitale: I think that we, at least, I am going through it right now to the extent that I will be upset, and I will not know why I am upset. This happened to me recently. For three days I battled in the spirit. I said, Lord, I do not believe this is me, but I am low down to the ground, and not walking in the high realms of the Spirit. The way I expressed it is that I lost the anointing that God has given me. I was very carnal, depressed, and upset. I said, Lord, I have no reason to feel this way. I know it is somebody else. It took me three days of travail before the Lord, for Him to catch me back up. I found out that someone else, that I know well, was depressed for those three days. I was feeling what they were feeling.
Comment: That is kind of what happens with the taking care of children. She must be under you. In a sense, she must be a spiritual child to you. I would like to be able to come to a place where I do not feel what that child is feeling, but raise them up out of what they are feeling. But if I get down in my soul, I start to lose it. I lose control. I mean the Christ control. I start to feel dragged down into the same feeling that they are feeling. It is emotional witchcraft, I think.
Pastor Vitale: I agree. I did not believe that, but the Lord has shown me that He is letting us get dragged down as a form of discernment. When we refuse to accept that depression, and overcome it, we raise the person, whose feeling we are feeling, right up with us. I believe this is a part of the education that we are going through, and that the day will come that we will not have to be depressed. I believe that the Lord will communicate to us in another way, so and so is oppressed or depressed, and we will be able to raise them up out of it, without first being dragged down to it. It is all part of our spiritual education, and our spiritual growth, along the road to full stature.
Comment: If we are in tune with the Lord and listening, He can say this person is depressed, but if we are not listening to the Lord, and doing our own thing, He will let us feel it.
Pastor Vitale: He lets us feel it because that is the only way He can get our attention.
Comment: A lot of times we could be feeling feelings and think it is ourselves, but it is not.
They are in a whole different place, and we are okay, and we are in Christ, but the other person may be feeling it.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, this is true. I think, at this point, I can honestly say that the Lord has me moving in both experiences.
He still lets me get dragged down to make me aware that someone else is depressed, but He also visits me with visions and words of knowledge, and prophesy, and words of wisdom, whereby He will tell me so and so needs help. Very frequently, He will just flash somebody in front of me. I no longer think, well I thought of so and so, and that is nice. I know that when someone comes into my mind, the Lord is speaking to me. I will pray, Lord willing, most of the time. I do pray, Lord, what would you have me to pray for this person? Are they in need? Sometimes, they are just thinking about me, and they are going to call me, but very frequently, they have a need. When someone flashes through my mind, I put them before the Lord, and say how would you have me to pray? I just bless them, and ask that the Lord help them with whatever difficulty they may be having. We have to start capturing every thought, and asking the Lord what He wants us to do with it. No more just thinking the thought and letting it fly out of our head.
I am putting that on record, that I would like to know how Jesus dealt with discerning the hearts of the entire world. How did He stop it from being total confusion in his mind? We cannot say that we are discerning the thoughts of people that are only sitting next to us because He has shown me otherwise. I have discerned the thoughts of people far away from me. I would like more instruction on that. It is very exciting. This age to come, that really already is the age to come, has already started. It is in seed form.
Comment: There must be levels where He lets us hear the thoughts of the person when He wants. It is on a certain level. We know any confusion is not of God. Already, we know that. I would say it is going to be that God lets us, just like He let Jesus hear the Pharisees’ thoughts, because that was who he was dealing with at the time. Whoever we are dealing with, just like how God planned that, that woman would sit down beside me. If we have a soul tie with somebody that is a thousand miles from us, and we hear their thoughts, that is because God wants us to deal with something, probably.
Pastor Vitale: I would have to say amen to that. If we need to hear their thoughts for our protection, if they are our enemies, or if He wants us to pray for them, or if He has ministry for them, He will let us hear their thoughts. I guess He is the filter that locks out the thoughts of the world, and only lets us hear or feel what He wants us to hear or feel.
Comment: You were saying that we are the whole world. It is all one big soul. I know you said it was one big soul. That could be possible too.
Pastor Vitale: Well, the Scripture calls it the noise of the nations. When God hears the whole thing, it is the noise of a child crying.
Comment: Oh that is interesting because He allowed me to hear that as an example this week. He let me hear, like even half of a day, a child crying without stopping. That is very disturbing. If God hears that, and we are going to come up to that place where we are sharing the same feelings and thoughts that God does, I guess He is going to teach us how to deal with it.
Pastor Vitale: I would have to believe that He has to teach us to deal with it. But this whole creation is a crying baby to the mind of God.
Comment: The gossip and all of the talk that is not the exact word of the Lord is noise. It is all noise. Idle talk is what the Bible calls it, and God hears it as noise.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, it is carnal talk. I believe that is so.
Comment: In perfection these gifts will pass away, so there will not be any need for tongues. This could mean that there will not be any need for English or any tongue that is understood to the mind of man. These things shall pass away, meaning even tongues of the Holy Spirit. Even that is going to pass away when we come into perfection, because we will not need it anymore. All tongues will pass, I guess, just like we will go over into another realm where we will not need it.
Pastor Vitale: You are saying all language will disappear. It would be interesting to look up the word tongues in that context in the Greek, and see if the Scripture is really saying language will disappear. That is interesting. I have to look that up.
Comment: Our language will be a more pure form after the heart is pure. There are so many wicked hearts, that it has to be in this lower realm where we talk through voice.
Pastor Vitale: Our language will be a more pure form in the mind.
The heart is so desperately wicked that there are a lot of human beings, probably the majority of human beings, that know that they cannot act out the intents of their heart. They cannot beat people up. They cannot murder people. They cannot harm them, so the Lord permits them to hide their thoughts behind the wall of their mind, and only speak out that which is acceptable. If the Lord would let us hear all of these thoughts of murder, how could we bear it? I know, in Christ, we can bear it, but so many people are not in Christ. I know that when the Lord first started processing me to live out of Christ, and I started feeling the hatred that is against God, all the Christ in me, and the hatred that was coming at me because of Christ, in me, it was very shocking to me. But He has processed me to the point now where I can deal with people hating me.
Comment: You would rather take the reproach, and live out of Christ, and bear the rejection, than go the other way. There is nothing the other way.
Pastor Vitale: There is nothing the other way, but when God first starts bringing you in, it is very painful knowing that people are hating you. Forget hating you, it is painful to know that people do not even like you. Everybody wants to be liked. But as the Lord processes you, and you move more into Christ, you realize that, that hatred is just a manifestation of immature spirituality.
Comment: It is evil because it is immature.
Pastor Vitale: It is like a child saying to you, I hate you. You do not take a five year old seriously, if you tell him to go to bed, and he says I hate you. Lots of children say things like that, and to the Lord, it is just the spiritual immaturity of the natural man hating the authority of Christ. If we are living out of Christ, we will be able to tolerate the thoughts of the adamic mind, but the adamic mind cannot tolerate the thoughts of the adamic mind.
Comment: With me, right now, I have been weakened by the attack that I have had under my last job. I was coming across with an authority, and yet being attacked, and being hated for the authority that I came from being Christ. Now it does hurt when I hear a child say I do not like you. It hurts. Even a child saying that, because I feel like I am beaten down, and it probably is not Christ that is hurting. It probably is my adam nature. He is letting me, I guess, just come to a weak point and see the difference, because I cannot see the difference, because I cannot stand up in adam. He is crushing it. I have got to stand up in Christ, and this is a difficult transition. He is letting me know how weak I am, but I like to please man, and He is saying no.
Pastor Vitale: I am sure that it is adam, and not Christ. Yes, it is very difficult. Amen. You cannot please man. There is nothing but death that comes out of that.
Comment: It is noise to God to try pleasing man. To God, rock and roll is like noise, but rock and roll to my ear is the beat of adam’s heart. It is the beat of adam’s heart that is dying.
Pastor Vitale: Thank God, he is dying unto Christ. Glory to God.
The Lord has me in a study in the Book of Hebrews, and I was reading where it says to make a testament valid, the testator must die. Have you heard that scripture preached on? The Lord is showing me that, that is not what the apostle Paul is saying, at all. In this natural world, if a human being makes a will, the will has no effect until the person who made the will dies. When he dies, then you collect your inheritance. The preaching that I have heard on it is that when Jesus Christ died, you became the recipient of his life. The Lord is showing me that, that is not a correct understanding of the scripture. He had me look up the word translated testator, which means the one who makes the will. First of all, the word testament is the same word as covenant as used in the old covenant and the new covenant. The King James translator just changed the word to testament. The word testator is a word that means someone who is a party to the agreement. It not clear whether they are talking about God or man. The covenant is between God and the Church. That Greek word translated testator means it could be either one.
The Scripture could be saying, the inheritance is only yours when God dies or the inheritance is only yours when the Church dies, or the individual man dies. Now God cannot die. God cannot die. He is an eternal Spirit. Who died? Jesus Christ of Nazareth died. He died to his soul life. His soul life, by which he was appearing in the realm of appearance as the man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That is what died, but the eternal Spirit of God, the Father, that dwelt in him, He did not die. What I am suggesting to you is what the Lord said to me. The one that has to die is us. It is preached in the church world that Jesus died, so now we do not have to die. But the scripture said that we are crucified with him, and when our adamic soul dies, we inherit all of the promises of the life of Christ. We did not inherit it because he died. When he died, he made the provision available for us, but now to lay hold of it, we have to die to our adamic soul life to obtain to a life in the Spirit of Christ. Did I make that clear? Do you know what I am saying? It is the exact opposite of what is being preached.
Comment: I know that there are people where you go to a church that preaches the promises of God, and there are thousands sometimes that will go there. In prosperity churches, you might walk into a church with five thousand people that believe prosperity is it. God wants us to prosper. They use the verse where Paul says, I wish that your soul prospers. What is the true Christ meaning of this? What is the true Christ meaning of prosperity? It is not what they are teaching there. It must be that they are teaching something that is really telling adam that he is going to prosper.
Pastor Vitale: I do not believe it. I believe that our soul has to prosper, but I do believe that there is a place in God, when the Lord makes a judgment that our thoughts are coming out of Christ to enough of a measure that He will prosper us financially. I believe there is material abundance in Christ available, but only when we reach a place, and it is not my place to say when you reach it, when Jesus says you reach a place where He has found you faithful, where you are brought into obedience. He speaks to you, you hear, and you obey, and you are living your life for Him. In that place there is also financial prosperity. I can hear all the voices out there saying, there are plenty of people in the church that are not repenting. They are in fornication. They are in adultery. They are this or that, and they have all kinds of money.
I would like to remind you that everything that is a reality in Christ, exists under the imputed anointing as a gift. The gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. There are people saved and unsaved, that have financial blessings on their life without repentance. There are many of us that are in the church that either had money when God called us, and then lost it. I heard a testimony a year ago about a business man. I think he was a millionaire. He lost his business. His wife left him. He lost his kids. He was living in the street, and now the Lord has raised him up to the point that he has a roof over his head, and food and clothing, but he is no millionaire. He goes from month to month to get his bills paid. That was a gift that was without repentance, when the Lord brought him into judgment. What is judgment? The correction of spiritual error in our soul, otherwise known as sin. The result of judgment is the peaceable fruit of righteousness. When God brought this man to a place of spiritual chastisement, that would produce righteousness in his soul, he lost all his money. He was a Texas oil millionaire, and God has not returned it yet.
There are people out there that can have money, and material things, and it is a gift that they received without repentance. Those of us that are under the judgment of the Lord, the judgment that is producing righteousness in our soul, not many of us have very much money. That is whether we had it originally, or whether we did not have it originally. I believe that there is a place in Christ, where He brings you into obedience, and you are living your life for Him, and He is satisfied with your progress, where He does not think money will hurt your spiritual growth, or stop your spiritual growth. When He brings you to that place, I believe there are financial blessings available to God’s people, but not without repentance, unless you have got a gift. God wants to bless us and prosper us, but the primary thing in His mind. The urgency of the hour is to have Christ formed in us, and to deliver us from sin. If we can handle money without interfering with His plan to do that for us, He will let us have it, but most people cannot handle both. Having money will turn them away from God, and believe me, He will not give it to you if that is the case.
That is unless you have a gift in that area. If you have a gift in that area, when your time comes for judgment, it is probably going to be the first thing that you lose. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. Who knows why God does anything? One of the reasons is that the church needs money, so He raises up wealthy people to support ministries. He just brought to my memory one man who was very wealthy. I was told he was a gangster involved with the mafia. He lost all his money when he came to Christ. He lost everything. After a couple of years, the Lord totally restored him. I believe he is a millionaire, and to the best of my knowledge, he is not under judgment, and he is involved in a bit of obvious sin there. I do not believe he has been brought to the place where the Lord is requiring him to look upon his own soul, and confess his sins, and repent, and receive the judgment. He lost all his money, as a gift, and God gave it back to him, as a gift. The only thing I have to say about that is, I am told, he gives hundreds of thousands of dollars to the church every year. It is possible that the Lord gave him back his gift. He let him lose it so that he came to a basic salvation. He confesses Jesus Christ, and he is now giving all this money to the church. The Lord gave it back to him because the church needs money. Jesus can do anything that he wants, but the chances are, when it comes to be his time for judgment, he might lose it again. Maybe he will, maybe he will not. I do not know.
Comment: It is just like Job. Job lost it, and then God returned it after the judgment, after Leviathan was judged. Then he got blessed after he went through all that.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, everything doubled after the judgment, after he repented, and said that he is nothing, and that God is everything.
Comment: Job repented of his pride. I guess that is it. There are a lot of rich people in the world, but they have such pride. But if it would come to a point where we could handle it in our hearts, He would probably let us have it, if it was not going to hurt our spiritual life.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, Job repented of his pride. They think they made the money themselves. For most people, money will hurt their spiritual life, until they start growing up in Christ, and get this kind of wisdom that we are talking about now.
Comment: I just have this vision that part of being a son is to let money flow through your hands. If you are holding on to it, you still have greed. I am talking to myself. This is what I believe. If I was selfish with my financial blessings, that the Lord would let me be. This is like a son. He is able to give anything away that he obtains. If the Lord gives me a house, I should be able to give it away, if He says to give it away to some person. I should say okay, Lord, I will do it. I have this vision where I believe that a son would do that. Maybe they do not know they are in sonship, but that has to do with sonship. Do you think so? Whatever it is, like an airplane or ten thousand dollars. If we cannot give away five dollars when He says to, how can we give away something big?
Pastor Vitale: I think so because it has to do with the confidence that God is going to meet your needs. We have to let it go for righteous purposes, believing that God is going to take care of us. The minds of the natural man says my money is tight. I am going to pull in my belt, and I am not going to give, out of fear of being left without. But Jesus said, when things are tight, do not be afraid to give to righteous causes, because I will provide for you. It is even a question of faith in God.
Comment: That really speaks to me. That is a word to me. When my money is tight, and I am pulling in my belt, and saying, well, my money is tight right now. I thought those very thoughts and held back. I am not talking about tithes. I am talking about free will offerings.
Pastor Vitale: That is the time to give, definitely.
I went into a financial crisis not too long ago, and I am still not completely out of it, but the word of the Lord to me was, open up your purse strings, and let it flow out. I was in at least two meetings. The announcement was made at one meeting that there is somebody here who needs a financial miracle. That was definitely me. Maybe someone else, but it was definitely me too. They said, do not worry, and put your money in the offering. God is going to do it. I found myself giving bigger offerings than I had ever given. There was such a peace in my heart. Then I was at another meeting, and someone stood up. I could see it in the man’s face. It was a real perception of a spiritual reality. He said somebody here is really pinched. This is a good opportunity for you to show your faith to God. Put it in the offering. I responded both times.
My monthly needs are met, but I believe God has told me He has a lot more for me that has not come in yet, but every need is met. My rent is paid, and I have food. I just have a peace in my heart that this is His instruction to me, and that everything is going to be fine. I am doing it. I am living by it. I am giving out, without fear, believing that the Lord will not leave me ashamed because these are His principles. If I meet somebody that has a need, I am giving, even though the carnal mind would say I am really in no position to give. I am giving anyway. If I have got it at the moment, I am giving. Of course, my carnal mind says, well it does not matter that you have got it at the moment. What about next month? Put it away in the bank. But I am not living that way. I am living to the best of my ability as God shows me a generous lifestyle, believing Him to meet my every need, because that is His word.
Comment: I am learning in this area too. I feel like this is the area that I would like to grow in, giving and living on faith. It can be exciting and it can be peaceful, more peaceful than the other way. The carnal mind says you will have peace, but it does not give you peace. It just cannot get enough. It just takes you further and further.
Pastor Vitale: It is very difficult when you are raised differently. It is very exciting and very peaceful, definitely. You never have enough in the bank; a thousand dollars, two thousand dollars. What is enough in the bank? A hundred thousand dollars? Maybe you live off of the interest when you retire. You could not live off the interest of a hundred thousand dollars. It is not enough money in this day and age to live on. When do you have enough? How do you know that you have enough if you are a carnal person? How do you know you are not going to the hospital, and it is going to take all of your money? It is much better to have faith in God for your living provision. What a blessed way to live, to know that you are provided for.
Comment: Did you ever tell how the Lord provided the money to pay your debt in the hospital?
Pastor Vitale: No, I did not. I wound up in the hospital, much to my shock, after having been healed of everything for a long period of time. The Lord put me in the hospital for this particular healing. My debt to the hospital was just short of thirteen hundred dollars. I never got a bill. When I called up the hospital, they told me it was marked paid. I honestly do not know whether a man walked in and paid it, or whether it was a computer error, but it is marked paid. My personal feeling is it is a computer error because I do not know anybody that would have done that, although a lot of people knew that I was sick. Anything is possible, but if it was a man, the Lord has not spoken to me as to how this was accomplished. If a human being did pay it, the Lord has not told me. I just know it is marked paid. The Lord paid my debt. The Scripture says we are to fear nothing.
Comment: You said in the hospital that you were telling the Lord that you did not even want the ministry.
Pastor Vitale: I fell down very low. I could not believe that God let me fall into that physical condition. I was very near to death. I could not understand His purposes in doing it. I felt betrayed. Of course, the condition that I had resulted in malnutrition. I was dying from malnutrition. It did affect my mind. That is the only excuse I could make for myself. I repent frequently before the Lord, because I failed. I lost faith. He put me in the hospital. He reached out and He touched me, like He touched Job, and I could not comprehend how He could heal me of everything for ten or twelve years, and then not heal me. I could not deal with it, and I thought that He turned me over, and I did not want to live.
Maybe betrayed is a wrong word, because I never blamed God. I never said that God was unrighteous, but I felt He did not raise me up. So if He did not raise me up, I guessed it was all over, and that He had left me. That was what I thought. Now I know the Bible says He will never leave me or forsake me, but I was in a very desperate condition, and that was what I thought. I thought He gave up on me. I did not want to live, and I did not ever want to go back into the ministry again. I was hurt very badly by a lot of people over a long period of time. I said I never wanted to minister again. I did not want to have anything to do with Christians. He did not kill me. God did not let me die. When I saw that He was raising me up, I carried on with my temper tantrum for a few weeks, saying I did not ever want to minister again. As I got stronger, one day He spoke to me very sternly. He told me you will do whatever I tell you to do. That afternoon I got a phone call and ministered for an hour on the telephone. Here I am back in the ministry.
Comment: Your heart was to minister and to have your own ministry.
Pastor Vitale: It was too painful. I did not want that pain, the pain that they inflicted on me. I loved people.
I did not mind dealing with people, but a lot of people in the ministry will tell you that sometimes God’s people are very rebellious. They smite the ministry that God has raised up for them. Just as the Jews crucified Jesus, the church today, spiritually crucify, the God sent ministers. I guess they do not realize that they are doing it when they do it, but that is the spiritual reality of it, and I failed the test. I did forgive them. I did not go against them. I just said I do not want anymore of this crucifixions. I never blamed God, and I never blamed the children in the kingdom. I just said, Lord, you picked the wrong person. I cannot handle it. Even though I lost it, He did not lose it. The Scripture says, even though we are unfaithful, He abides faithful. So His faith carried me over until I recovered. What can I say? (Laughter) I love the ministry, and I love being in it. Things are much better now. That was just a very severe period of testing that He put me through. Things are fine now. I could deal with this. I am happy.
I found that so many times God will try somebody severely, and just as they are about to take the victory, and enter into a deliverance out of this painful situation, like a spiritual second before they are going to pass over the line where it will not be so painful, they give up and they run away. They cannot see that their deliverance is right over the hill, right around the corner. Another day, another week, just maybe another month, and this terribly painful situation is going to straighten out. They cannot see it, and they turn away from God, or they backslide, or whatever word you want to use. As for me, I did not even want to go on living. The reason I did not want to go on living was my whole life is God. My whole life is God’s people and ministering to them. If I was a failure at that, there was nothing in the world for me to go back to, because there was nothing in the world that I wanted. That was why I was praying, Lord, let me die, but He had other plans. He fixed me up. He healed me, and He revealed to me His purposes in that trial. When I was not faithful, when I lost my faith, His faith carried me through.
Things are much better. The painful times seem to have passed. I am very blessed with my life. He showed me this with a lot of people. Deliverance is right over the hill, and they give up just at the last moment, before the light dawns. Why? Because they are in such pain that they are blind to the glory that is just around the corner to them. He is faithful, and this chastening that will bring us into His image is very painful. I do not hear it preached anywhere, and because it is not preached, believers are not prepared for it when the chastening of the Lord falls upon them. I believe in the truth. I do not believe in scaring anybody. The Scripture says we can fall down seven times, and we will never be destroyed, but the chastening of the Lord is painful, yet it shall yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness. Run not, or fear not, the chastening of the Lord, for it is a manifestation of His love for you that will result in eternal life.
I hope that I never have to go through an experience like that again. O God please no! But if I do, I think that I would know, no matter how bad a shape I am in, that the Lord is going to raise me up. Maybe that was why I had to go through that experience. I had to learn that no matter how bad things looked, because I was in the hospital for more than three months, and my whole life fell apart. God forbid, if I ever have to go through it again, I will know that God can raise me up out of anything. Maybe that is why I had to go through it. I had to learn that. No matter how bad things look, God can raise you up out of anything. There is never any excuse to give up, or turn away, because deliverance is right around the corner. Amen. How about a song?
Song: Rita singing, accompanied by her guitar.
Well, I guess you have all heard the story. In the Bible it has been told about the three little Hebrew children and the idols that were made of gold. Now the evil king commanded that they should all bow to them. They said, just do it, you must. No, we are going to put our trust in the God that never, never fails, for He is the God that never fails. He is the God Jehovah. He is the God that takes us over the mountains and the valleys. He is the God that cannot fail. Now they were bound, and yet determined, as in the furnace they were thrown, but it did not take long for the king to find out they were not walking in that furnace alone. When he came to the edge of the furnace, and looked over the rim, he saw the shadow of the God that cannot fail. He is the great God Jehovah, so greatly to be praised. He is the God that cannot fail. Now we are all bound, and yet determined, as in the furnace we have been thrown. It will not take long for the world to find out we are not walking in this furnace alone, because when we come to the edge of the furnace and look over the veil, we will see the King’s face of the God that cannot fail.
Comment: (Laughter) Did you hear that bird? That bird was hilarious. It was chirping with the right beat and everything. That was really funny. It chirped on the exact beat. I almost started laughing during the song. That was so funny. I really almost lost the rest of the song on that. I could not help it. He was so funny and showing off a little. (Laughter) The Lord has a sense of humor.
Pastor Vitale: The bird is beautiful, he praises the Lord. I cannot wait for the bird to start talking. He was so quiet when I first brought him home. I said, Lord, please let the bird make a few sounds in this house. Now he is really loud, and I really believe he is going to speak. He is going to say praise the Lord.
Song: He is the great I Am, the Alpha and the Omega. He is the great Counselor, the Everlasting Father. He is the great I Am. He is the Prince of Peace.
Song: I can depend upon Jesus. I found out I can trust in Him. I can depend upon Jesus. He is my friend. I am learning to lean and depend upon Jesus.
Song: Lay down that heavy burden. Glory, hallelujah. I am going to lay down my heavy load because Jesus carries it. Glory, hallelujah.
Song: What a friend we have in Jesus. All our sins and griefs to bear. Oh what a privilege to carry everything to God in prayer. What peace we often forfeit, needless pain we bear, all because we do not carry everything to God in prayer.
Song: Jesus, name above all names. Beautiful Savior, Emanuel, God is with us. Beautiful Savior, Living Word.
Comment: So you are saying that a demon of error can be cast out?
Pastor Vitale: Yes, a demon of error can be cast out, but we have to understand what his function was before he was cast out.
The function of a demon is to keep a curse or wrong thinking in operation. You just go round and round and round, believing the same lie, because curses are in the mind, and curses affect the way that you think. If the demon is holding a curse in, which means that you are believing a false doctrine, or you are involved in an ungodly relationship, or anything along those lines, you are not going to be able to heal from a wound that is caused by false doctrine or caused by an ungodly relationship, until the demon is cast out. That is because the demon is the guardian that keeps the pain in. He is the spiritual guardian that keeps the error in. So he is like the guy with the sword outside of the door that says, no, you are not going to get healing. I am standing here, and I am watching you, and you are going to remain in this error, and you are going to remain in this pain. By the power of Jesus Christ, we cast the demon out, and we then become eligible for healing. If your problem is false doctrine, once you cast the demon of false doctrine out, then your mind can start to receive the true doctrine, and release the error, and the Lord will renew your mind. If you have been wounded from an ungodly relationship, when you cast the guardian out, which is the demon, then you can start to heal. The function of a demon is to keep you perpetuating in the same sin, or the same pain, to keep it going for as long as he can possibly keep it going.
Comment: If a spirit of New Age teaching is dwelling in the doctrine at a church, is the spirit and the doctrine one?
Pastor Vitale: Well, they are one, but the doctrine is greater than the spirit. There is an evil spirit producing false doctrine, but he is doing more than producing false doctrine. He is also preventing the truth from coming forth. Now when the demon is cast out, there could still be the false doctrine circulating, but now the door is open for truth to enter in, and the truth will always defeat the error. Can you see that? A demon is a spiritual strength that is locking in the false doctrine, and locking out the truth. He is the warrior.
Comment: How do you know that the spirit of error or the demon of error has been cast out?
Pastor Vitale: You will know when truth starts coming forth in their place, whether that place be a church or whether that place be in your mind. You may not be able to recognize it at the moment, if it is in you. When you get to a place where you can look back, and say around that time the truth came to my ears, and my ears were open to the truth. Then you can say with pretty much security, that somewhere along the line, the Lord delivered you of a demon of false doctrine, if you believe that you have one.
Comment: Can you say that there could be more than one demon of false doctrine in the mind? Could it have to do with several doctrines and different demons?
Pastor Vitale: Oh sure, there could be many. It definitely could be several.
Comment: Do they have names, like according to whatever the doctrine was?
Pastor Vitale: Probably.
Comment: You recognize that you are in a church that is teaching false doctrine, and you decide to leave, but you are not at a level where you say, well Lord, should I leave? You did not ask the Lord, and you just left because you noticed the false doctrine. Is it still right?
Pastor Vitale: That is a hard question to answer because it would really depend upon whether you are young in Christ or not. The bottom line is you should always ask the Lord first. But if you did not ask the Lord, and you are young and impressionable in Christ, then I would expect, in most instances, the answer would be to get out. However, there are places in Christ, for those who are mature in Christ, where the Lord might tell you to stay in the church as a witness to his truth for a season, even though the lie is coming forth. I do not think there are that many elders around that God uses that way. Knowing you personally, as I do, I would be inclined to say the right thing to do was to get out, because you did not know enough to seek the Lord, and maybe you could not have heard from him at that time. You discerned the false doctrine, and if I know you, you were probably frightened by it. The way you defended yourself was to run. I would not worry about that.
Comment: I tried talking to the man that was there at the time, and all he perceived was the fear I had. He did not accept my word about the error, and I did not expect him to anyway. He said if you are afraid of being deceived, you are probably going to be deceived, just like Job. I heard what he said, but obviously I was concerned about the false doctrine that I saw. They did not believe they were in any false doctrine.
Pastor Vitale: I am sure he did not.
Comment: He was not going to accept that from me. I am learning something here. When you say something that might be true, but they perceive your fear, they usually do not receive it as truth.
Pastor Vitale: They respond to the spirit that you are saying it in.
Comment: He responded to the spirit I was saying it in. He said that I should not be reading any books about New Age, and anything that might expose something that might be here, if it is just a spirit of fear, because probably it is not true. He was saying I was looking at a book, and was comparing it to the teaching, and it looked the same. I judged it, and became afraid, and left. That I have to deal with, even to this day. He believes I should still be there. What is important, right now, is I do not know whether the spirit of error has been cast out or not. It is possible that it has not. I just left and I am seeking for truth now. Basically, I think that is what it is.
Pastor Vitale: You may never have had a demon of error because you left. If you had birth a spirit of false doctrine, you would still be there. I guess it is possible you could have birth it and ran, but I would not worry about it.
Comment: I have met a sister and others where the spirit of New Age overgrew in them. That could have happened to me.
Pastor Vitale: Could you just explain for the people what you mean when you said you met a sister where the spirit had overgrew.
Comment: We met a sister who had gone to the church where they were learning New Age teachings. This spirit was manifesting. I do not know how to express it.
Pastor Vitale: I think Rita is trying to say that we recently met an old acquaintance who was present in this church when we believe false doctrine came in. She left the church for a reason not associated with what we believe to be the false doctrine. We ran into her two years later, and even though she is no longer attending that church, we believe that the Lord has shown us that, that spirit rooted in her, grew and prospered, and that she seemed to be saying a lot of New Age things. Even though she left the church, she received the word, but you see, you never received the word.
Comment: That is one spirit where you think you have all the answers in yourself, and you just go deep within yourself. That is a lot of what New Age is like, that we already are Christ in our mind, and there is no such thing as devils and demons. I know that was present. I did not receive that, but the other teachings of false reconciliation that I received, I still need deliverance from that. I do not understand what happened there. There could be more than one spirit there of false doctrine, and I could have received it, if it came from the teacher themselves. When their mind is so strong over me, and I start teaching their teachings to my friends, that are not even from that church, then that spirit is in me. That was what this sister was doing. She was really talking to us what she received, overgrew, and now she is talking it. If I go and talk the person’s teaching, like ultimate reconciliation, it has birth in me. I do not know how deep it is, but it is there somewhere. I am believing it.
Pastor Vitale: Yes, definitely, but I thought that you did not believe them.
Comment: I do not talk ultimate reconciliation, but I did for a long time. I started doing that while I was under that ministry. Now I am not, but that is a whole other subject. The way they were teaching it, I do not believe. There probably is some truth in it, and error, in that very doctrine. I believe there is a fine line in it. This is my question to you right now. First of all, you said the spirits have to be cast out that are there. They have to be cast out. When they do get cast out, can the teaching still be in the mind?
Pastor Vitale: The teaching can still be in the mind, but once the demon is cast out, when the mind is exposed to the truth, the mind will recognize the truth, and reject the lie.
Comment: I told my family that I believe that Christ is in me, and what he is doing right now is separating what I received for three years there, what was truth, and what was error. Is that possible? Is that what happens?
Pastor Vitale: I am not sure I understand what you said. Let me repeat it, and you tell me if that is what you said to me. You are believing that Christ, in you, is now dealing with what you took in three years ago, and showing you which part of it was truth, and which part of it is error. Yes, I believe Christ does that. He will witness to the truth, and expose the error. Praise the Lord. Thank God for His protection.
Comment: I choose to go to that church. I wanted it, and yet I believe that God was behind it, because I was not at the level where I am at today, where I am beginning to hear from Him on a clearer level. I choose it because I was drawn to it. I think younger ones in Christ do that. They choose something as they are drawn. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice.
Pastor Vitale: I think the Lord sent you to that church. I think you were there at the will of the Lord, but things do not always remain the same. When it was time for you to leave, you left. You think you did it without seeking the Lord, but maybe it was the Lord that pulled you out.
Comment: I think he sent me there, and I think he pulled me out.
Pastor Vitale: I think so too. I know that you are His, even though you did not specifically go before Him and say, Lord, what should I do. He knew how old you were spiritually, and He put it in your heart to leave. I do not doubt it for a second. Satan would not have put it in your heart to leave. He would have wanted you to stay there.
Comment: Unfortunately, the preacher still thinks I should be there. I have got that to deal with.
Pastor Vitale: You think that he still thinks about you three years later?
Comment: No, I sense it in the realm of the spirit. I do not think he consciously does. I think it is a mind control spirit, and I think it reaches out to me.
Pastor Vitale: I could be wrong, but I would not think so. Well, that is a possibility.
Comment: I think that it reaches out from the ones that I was being taught from especially. Maybe a few others that I have relationships with in the church reach out with that spirit. I do not know today how to overcome that. The fact that I left, without saying goodbye, is like a mind control on me.
Pastor Vitale: Is it possible it is a conviction of the Lord that you left without saying goodbye? I am firmly convinced that we are to say goodbye when we leave, but I do understand that a lot of young Christians are spiritually weak, and they cannot face up to the minister. They are afraid of him, or they are afraid he will exert some ungodly power on them. A large majority of young Christians really do not do what is right. They leave without saying goodbye, but they do it by reason of spiritual weakness.
Comment: I recognize now that it was a fear, and I was afraid of it. That was what was in my mind, that a minister could get up and say very outwardly, and almost proud of it, I am a new age creature, and you had better believe it. That was it.
Pastor Vitale: It frightened you and you left. If you wanted to, you could drop him a note. If you feel you do not want to put a return address on it, just drop him a note and say that you have been convicted that it was not proper to leave without saying goodbye. You know it has been three years, but it is never too late to say you just wanted to bless him, and let him know that you are thinking only good thoughts towards him, or something along those lines. Even if you put your return address on it, he may answer your letter, but I do not think he is going to do much more than that. You see, there is something in the realm of the spirit that is not giving you rest.
Comment: It is not giving up. Maybe it is, but I do not perceive it, but I am free of it. You are right, it is not giving me rest in that area.
Pastor Vitale: That is because you never killed it. The relationship came to an end, but it was not buried. Maybe all you have to do is write him a letter and say goodbye. Make it final. Assert yourself, no matter what you think, by saying goodbye. You do not put that in the letter, but by writing him a letter, you are burying it. You are saying goodbye. I was blessed for the time that I was in your church. Thank you for all of your efforts on my behalf, but goodbye.
That is why it is not right to leave without saying goodbye, because you do not end the soul tie. Young Christians do not understand this. It is not just a question of what is socially acceptable or not. There are certain behaviors that we have to do. When somebody dies, it is necessary to mourn for them, to get the pain out, and put it away. When you end a relationship, whether it is a man and a woman, whether it is a church relationship, if you feel that this man has gone in a different direction, that you do not want to follow, that is your privilege. Say goodbye. Of course, you can only say this if it is true for you. I like you as a person, and I thank you for all that you have done for me, but we have gone in different directions spiritually. I just want to end this on a Godly note. Goodbye, and God bless you, and God bless your wife, your children, and God bless your ministry. This is really necessary. Otherwise, this thing hangs in the realm of the spirit, and follows us. Now you may be right that it is him, but it may be you. Something in the back of your own mind never said goodbye to him, and it is just hanging there tormenting you. It may not be him at all. It may be, but it may not be him at all. You never put an end to it.
Comment: No matter which way it is, it would help to do that. It could be both. It could be the fact that I did not say goodbye even though it has been three years. God has had me correct some things like that before. I will not say in the letter, you have false doctrine, but that is the truth, and that is why I am saying goodbye.
Pastor Vitale: Right, you do not say that. You just say it is three years later, but I left without saying goodbye, and I am being convicted of it, and I just wanted to say goodbye. I bless you, and your family, your children, and your ministry. Thank you for everything that you did that blessed me. That is all. End it. Otherwise these things just hang on.
Comment: I do not see why it has to hang on. There are people that leave churches all the time because there is error. You are saying that it is not necessary to end the relationship with the preacher at that time.
Pastor Vitale: It does not make it right to leave without saying goodbye. You are spiritually sensitive, so it bothered you. I believe that you should say goodbye, not just to a preacher, but any relationship such as girlfriend, boyfriend, or anybody. If you are walking out of their life, you should say goodbye.
I tell you, as a preacher, how it works. When somebody leaves without saying goodbye, they are wounded. Preachers pour out their hearts. A lot of the children of the kingdom are just spiritual children. They do not understand what ministry is. It is a pouring out of your life for the people that God brings into your life. To have someone, who has been there for a couple of years, to just leave without saying goodbye, you have wounded the preacher, and the people. If the minister had gone into false doctrine, he did not think it was false doctrine, so he is saying what did I do to deserve someone leaving without saying goodbye. While they were here I poured my life out for him or her. If we had a difference of opinion, it is not right to leave without saying goodbye.
Comment: I understand what you are saying. They begin to take it as a personal wound.
Pastor Vitale: It is a personal wound. You see, you have every right to leave. If the Lord calls you out, if you perceive false doctrine, whatever, you have every right to leave, but it does wound them if you do not say goodbye.
Comment: A person should be able to leave a church without having the preacher say to the believers that God is not going to bless you. You are going into something that God does not have for you. God wants you here, and that kind of thing.
Pastor Vitale: Did he say that to you?
Comment: No, but I guess I was afraid of the possible words that he would say. What I am saying is, if a person feels that way, do they not have the right to leave without hearing words like that from a preacher? If they feel in their heart that God is saying I want you to go, they should have the right to say goodbye without the ministers beginning to say those things to them.
Pastor Vitale: It is not a question of having a right. You have no control over what the person is going to say to you when you say goodbye. If you cannot face up to what he has to say to you, you write him a letter. If you are afraid of what his response is going to be to you, if you cannot deal with it, you write him a letter. It is just as good. It is never too late if you feel led to do it. You have to realize that for every counterfeit there is a spiritual reality. If a preacher tells you that you are called here, and I do not think God is telling you to leave, it could be demonic, but it could be God. You have to pray about it, and then you have to do what you think is best. But every time a preacher says that to you, it is not a curse. It could be the truth. It is very common that children in the kingdom leave a church and it is not God taking them out. They just get their feelings hurt, and they leave the church. This is a rebellious act.
Comment: What is spiritual incest?
Pastor Vitale: Spiritual incest is when another human being penetrates our spiritual borders. The logical term is our own space. Everybody needs to have their own space.
There are certain spiritual barriers that even a parent has no right to cross over. Everybody is entitled to privacy. Depending on how young you are, you might be entitled to a very minimal amount of privacy, but you are entitled to your own thoughts. I always told my daughter, when I was raising her, you can think whatever you want, but you must respect me. You can be angry at me. You could think I do not know what I am talking about, but you must respect me, and you have to do what I tell you because I am doing what I think is best for you. I think one form of spiritual incest is to demand that a child tells you everything that they are thinking, and not be allowed to have any privacy at all. It is a piercing through into one’s emotional privacy against that other person’s will. Sometimes it is called an ungodly soul tie.
Comment: What if it is not against their will, necessarily, because they do not recognize it as spiritual incest?
Pastor Vitale: That is a good question. I guess it does not have to be, necessarily, against one’s will, but we are talking about an ungodly soul tie where one person is trying to live through another person, or trying to make another person do something that will gratify them. It used to happen a lot in our society when very few women worked. You would find a lot of women getting their prestige based upon the financial success of their husband or what kind of a job their husband had. They would push their husbands to work harder to get the promotion, to get the big job, so they could feel important because their husband had an important job. If you are a woman, and that is your motive for encouraging your husband to get a promotion that is spiritual incest. It could be a man. It could be a very passive man that encourages his wife to be active politically, or be some kind of a political figure, because it makes him feel important that he is married to you. He is getting his satisfaction through your achievements. That is ungodly.
Comment: What about parent to child?
Pastor Vitale: Well the same thing happens. A lot of parents, that are not happy with their lives, want their children to do things that will make them happy.
In other words, I knew a woman once who wanted to be a school teacher. Her mother would not let her go to college, for whatever her reasons were. When she had her children, she wanted them to be school teachers. Maybe the children did not want to be school teachers, but the mother was pressing for them to be school teachers, because it was something that she had never achieved, and she wanted to have her soul feel good through her child achieving that thing. Some women like a particular kind of man, and never marry that kind of man, and they see their daughter marrying this six foot five football player, and they get a satisfaction in their soul out of their daughter winding up marrying a six foot five muscle bound football player. Sometimes a father wants to see his daughter marry the kind of man that he never was, a successful business man, or a good looking guy. Something like that, that is using your children to satisfy your own soul, is very ungodly.
I want to put something on here that you mentioned to me before. It is a totally different situation to hear somebody say, I prayed for a particular blessing in your life, and God never gave me that blessing, but He gave it to my daughter. You see, the bottom line is, if God does it, it is okay. If God did not answer the prayer to that woman, but gave the blessing to her daughter, if God did it, it is okay. But if that mother is, by witchcraft power, willing her daughter to marry a particular kind of man, so that the mother can feel gratified, that is not okay, and it is spiritual incest. It is the same definition. Spiritual power is spiritual power, but if it is spiritual power of God, it is legal. If it is the spiritual power of the carnal mind, it is not legal.
Comment: How can you tell whether a parent is interfering with a relationship with a boyfriend or girlfriend, or the relationship within a marriage?
Pastor Vitale: You really have to pray about it, because if you just look with your carnal mind at the circumstances, it looks like it is the same thing. Here is this young girl that married this six foot four muscle bound football player, and now how do you know whether God did it, or whether the mother’s witchcraft did it? Of course, the situation that we were talking about earlier with the daughter, that was not a good example, of the six foot four muscle bound football player. I do not know that God would answer a prayer like that, either for a mother or a daughter. In the situation that we were talking about, what the mother had said was, I had wanted a man who would really care about me. It had nothing to do with looks or anything vain like that, but a man who would be faithful to me, and really care about me, which is not an ungodly desire. God never gave it to me, but He put that blessing on my daughter, she said.
Comment: So that could have been of God?
Pastor Vitale: Yes, it could have been of God. If a parent goes ahead, with ungodly influence, then it is witchcraft, and it is spiritual incest to try to bring it to pass.
Comment: How do you know how to discern it when they are in on the situation, and crossing the line, when you want to honor your parent? What do you do?
Pastor Vitale: Well, you should not be required to honor your parent by picking a certain man. That is really a trap..
There is nothing wrong with picking a man that your parents will approve of, if their motive is your wellbeing. You see, here we are right back down to rock bottom again, to motive. If your parents are saying to you, I would like you to pick a man that has a good job, because I do not want you to be on the welfare line. I am not criticizing anyone that is on welfare, but anyone that is honest will say it is not an ideal situation. Anyone that is on welfare, hopefully the Lord is going to deliver you from that someday. It is okay for a parent to say, I would like you to marry a man that is qualified for a good job, and is earning a good living, so that you could have a good life. For you to say, yes mom and dad, I met someone, and he fills your requirements, is very nice. If the mother is saying I want you to marry a very handsome six foot four football player, so that I can feel satisfied in my soul, that is not alright. Can you hear the difference? Is it Godly parental concern for the child, which is okay, or is it an ungodly attempt to fill an emptiness in the parent’s heart, which is not only witchcraft, it is idolatry. All emptiness in our heart should be filled with Christ. To answer your question, how can you tell, you have to be able to discern the parent’s motive.
Comment: I heard something on the radio, and this got me thinking about the marriage situation. When they are already married, it was how parents get involved in that marriage. It was a man that was giving an example about a lady that had just gotten married, and they were starting a new life together. Her mother-in-law came to the door with groceries one day. She said, oh that is nice. She wants to help us out with groceries. She came into the house, set the groceries down, and said I thought since I was already out, I would just do some shopping for you. She gave her the receipt, and asked her for the money, and said these are the things my son likes to eat. She was totally disillusioned by her mother-in-law, thinking she was helping her, but she was really coming in on the marriage, and starting to rule things. That was a pretty good example, but how do you deal with it when it does happen?
Pastor Vitale: I believe the correct thing to do is to give the mother-in-law the money, and as soon as your husband came home to tell him what happened. I believe it is the son’s place, the husband’s place, to talk to his mother, and tell her, thank you mom, but we do not want you shopping for us. We appreciate that you did it, but please do not do it again. If the mother-in-law persists, it is still the son’s place to talk to her. I think he would have to say, if you continue, we will not refund your money.
Comment: That is a good idea. A lot of the men and women do not pick it up because they are used to mom and dad doing for them. If a man does not pick it up, with the understanding that a parent is crossing the line, there is a problem.
Pastor Vitale: That is very true. That is a big problem in a lot of young marriages. Either the young woman or the young man is being spiritually mistreated, and the person whose parent it is, either does not recognize it, or is not willing to deal with their parent in such a Godly adult manner that I just described. Either they are not willing, or not capable of dealing with their parent. It is a real problem in society today.
Comment: We want to honor them, but we know what it says in the Word that we have to separate, and cleave unto each other.
Pastor Vitale: Honoring your parent does not include letting your parent involve you in an ungodly soul tie. That is not honoring your parent. Honoring your parent is giving them the respect of listening to them if they want to give you a Godly opinion. Even more so, the way Jesus described it, honoring your parents means to care for them when they are old, if they should need either financial help or physical help.
Comment: Some parents today are so proud that they are not even accepting help. Everything is turned around. They are concentrating on their children’s marriage, which they are not supposed to do, and when it comes to the fact of actually having the children taking care of them, they are too proud. It is a setup of the devil because if you have a family, and a husband, and your parents have to live with you, they are the ones who are the recipients of your care. It is not supposed to be that they come in and tell you what to do. It is all turned around. They want to tell you what to do. How can you take care of a parent that is going to be like that?
Pastor Vitale: It is very hard, if not impossible.
Society is so breaking down in this country. In Europe they had all these problems worked out. Parents could live with married children because they were taught from a young age by seeing the example of how to deal with these life situations. In this society, it is because of the breakup of the family, of children not even living in the same neighborhood with parents, a lot of women going to work, and having strangers raise their children. Children are being raised with a very good intellectual education. They start them in school at three years old, but they are being raised without a social education. They do not know how to get along with their husbands. They do not know how to raise their children. They do not know how to deal with their elderly parents. They just do not know how.
I heard recently that it is a big problem in this country today, that women and men do not know how to be parents. Everything is out of order. I saw a movie once that really blessed me. There were four generations living in the same house. The grandmother lived there, and she was living in her son’s house. She did not try to take dominion over anybody, or over the wife. She was there, and she would help out in the kitchen once in a while, but she was not trying to rule her daughter-in-law. They were living in the house together, and they were making pancakes, or whatever they were making, with her son’s children, her grandchildren. I cannot remember the name of the movie, but it was about a Jewish family living in either Greece or Spain. There was the grandmother who was living in her son’s house, with the grandchildren, and there was one married grandchild, who was living in the house with their child. In one scene, the grandmother, the mother, the daughter, and the daughter-in-law were in the kitchen making something that takes a long time to make. They were all sitting in the kitchen working together. Nobody was striving with one another. The father, the son of the grandmother, was very much ruling his household with kindness. It just really blessed me, because I believe in this. I look around and see the family being ripped to pieces, and it really hurts me.
Comment: That was probably a really old movie, because it is not like that today.
Pastor Vitale: It was not, but you might consider it an old movie. One of the grandchildren fell in love with a soldier, and I think he was a World War II soldier. What I see happening is that the spiritual reality, of what the living soul has fallen to, is being played out. The living soul is a wild beast, but over the centuries man developed society, and the rules that made men able to live together in peace. Those rules were based on the Bible. The father is in charge, the mother is under him, and everybody was in their order, and families lived together for two, three, and four generations. But in this hour, large numbers of society, not only in this country, but all over the world, they are coming out from under the law of God. They are breaking all of the rules. What is happening is that we are becoming, except those of us that are trying to live in Christ, we are becoming wild beasts. Two and three generations cannot live together. Why? Because there is a power play. They no longer accept the fact that they know who is going to be in charge. Years ago, if a daughter comes to live with her mother, the daughter knew that the mother was in charge. The father, if he was there, was also in charge. There was no warfare trying to take that authority away.
I look around me today. I see children trying to take the authority of their parents away. Grandparents coming in, and instead of receiving the gift of their married children, as you said earlier, they come into their home and try to rule their home. This knowledge of how to live together in peace, through the correct order, seems to have been lost. What is the result of it? People cannot live together. Single children spend a fortune to maintain their own apartments. I know many people that are having trouble making it financially. The daughter is living in one place, and the mother is living in another place, and the child is living in another place. If they could make a way to live together, they could have a much greater measure of financial security, and the blessings of being in the home together. But you see, you cannot live in a home together unless you know where your place is in that home.
Part of knowing where your place is in that home is knowing who is over you. Not only knowing who is under you, but knowing who is over you, and respecting them, and submitting to their rules. You cannot expect someone, who God has given authority in the home, to lay down their authority so that you can have the privilege of living there. It is not right. If you want all the blessings of that house, a nice home, food on the table, fellowship of other people, you have got to submit to their authority. I say this to all of the young people in the world, and in this country today, because what I see is young people want the home, and the blessings, but they want to rule. They get into arguments with their parents, and when their parents put them out, there is a terrible feeling of anger that goes back and forth. Why? It is because the young people were never taught that the parents have the God given authority. They think they have it. To convince them that they are wrong, it is going to take the power of God.
Now why would a young person think that they have a right to take authority over their parents in the house? Well, if you are a parent, and you are going through this problem, all that I can say to you is, check out your relationship with grandma and grandpa. If you want your children to respect you, you have to honor your own parents, and check your relationship out with your husband, if you are a woman. If the whole time your children were growing up, you have rebelled and overrode the authority of your husband, do not be surprised that your children are rebelling against you. If you have not honored your parents, and your in-laws, do not think that you could sit around that dinner table, and complain to your husband or to your wife, about your mother-in-law or your father-in-law, and say how terrible they are, and how you are not going to have them in this house anymore, and think that your kids are going to grow up with a Godly respect for you, because they are not.
We should talk about these issues, husband and wife behind closed doors, and the person whose parents are presenting the problem have to be spoken to by that person, and made to understand. If for whatever reason, the in-laws will not make a Godly decision to do what they have to do, so that a livable situation can exist, then you have to do whatever you have to do. You have to tell them you can only come when you are invited. Hopefully, it does not come to that. But if the in-laws are unreasonable, certain steps have to be taken, but you never do this in front of your children. You never give your children reason to disrespect their grandparents. This is happening all over this country. Aunt so and so is a nut, and I will not bother with her. Do not be surprised when your kids do not respect you. That is the size of it. The whole society is in rebellion. All of western society is in total rebellion against the laws that we have spent generations establishing.
Comment: What if a childis living with the parent, believing that they are spiritually higher than the parent, but it is interfering in the home, because they believe that they can take the rule? What do you have to say about that?
Pastor Vitale: I say that if you are spiritually higher than the parent, which is possible, you will submit to the natural authority of your parent. If you really are in Christ, and moving in Christ, you will have this knowledge. Maybe you are receiving it by this message, but God will get this knowledge to you. In a natural situation, your father and mother rules in their house.
Comment: Can you explain the difference between how much rule they have over the child? What does this mean in the natural?
Pastor Vitale: How old a child are you talking about? Are you talking about a young adult?
Comment: Yes, a young adult.
Pastor Vitale: A young adult has a right to go to whatever church he or she chooses to go to, and I do not believe that a parent has a right to say otherwise to a child who is supporting themselves. As soon as you are out of school, as soon as your parents stop supporting you, and you are working, and hopefully contributing some funds to the maintenance of the household, and the purchasing of food, your parents have no right to tell you what church to go to. While they are supporting you, they have a right to say that to you. In any event, you would not want to upset them. You would do everything you can to not provoke them, but to tell them that you are an adult now, and you really feel led to this religion, and you are hoping they are going to accept it. But if life gets too hot, you are going to have to move out.
Sometimes parents support children, well into their twenties, that are going to college for long periods of time. This is a difficult situation. If you have a twenty one or twenty two year old son in your house, and you do not like his religion, that is really a problem. I think, under those circumstances you might want to give way. However, it is different if you are the son, and you have parents who will not give way. I am getting into trouble here. This is really tough. Once we get into children that age, every situation is really different. I think I am going to stop here. Basically speaking, if you need your parents to support you, you have to honor them. If they demand that you do not get involved in a particular religion, you either have to obey them or get your support elsewhere.
You cannot expect your parents to be supporting you, and you telling them what to do. That is very ungodly. If they are not supporting you, and you are living with them, and they insist on telling you what to do, you have two choices. You submit to them or you go and get your own place. But you cannot expect to live in their home, even if you are paying rent, and cause them grief. You cannot do this. It is their home. If someone has got to move, it has to be the child. Very few people today know this. Children are beating up their parents because they think they have a right to do it. I was watching TV the other day, and I heard a young teenager speaking, about fourteen or fifteen years old. She said I want to beat my mother so she would know what it feels like when she hits me. She was setting herself up as totally equal to the mother. There is no understanding of authority in this society. We are in a lot of trouble.
Comment: If you are working for a person that says I do not want you to spank my children, and they want to use the method of isolation, what would you suggest?
Pastor Vitale: You have to do it. It is their children, and they are your employers. You have to do what they say. If you do not do what they say, you have to be prepared for the possibility of reaping what you have sown. They may fire you.
Comment: Even with knowing that it is against God’s word?
Pastor Vitale: God’s word is servant submit to your masters. You cannot come out and discipline their children in a way they do not want them disciplined. No good can come of it. You could go before the Lord, and say Lord, I am having a real discipline problem with these children. I have been instructed to not spank them. How are you going to help me? They are not my children. It is my job, and these kids are running rings around me. I really do not know what to do. He may help you supernaturally by calming them down, but you have to obey your employer. Yes, it is tough.
Comment: It is against God’s word, and children should be spanked, but it should be done by the parents, and not the babysitter. It makes it very hard to take care of a child like that. Most of the time it is hard, but there are a few exceptions where it is even worse. It is a tough situation.
Pastor Vitale: All that you could do is pray, and ask what God’s purposes are in giving you this job. Ask what He wants you to do about it, and how you could best deal with this problem. I think God is giving you a purpose in everything that happens to you, especially you.
Comment: I was brought up that the children should be spanked. Everything is all out of order. I see it, and I know why the exact problem exists. To me it is an impossible situation. It is almost like a torment to me.
Pastor Vitale: First of all, all things are possible in Christ. I suspect very strongly what the Lord is doing with you. He is trying to break you out of all of your preconceived borders, that things have to be this way, and things have to be that way. He is helping you, and showing you how to cope with people that do not think like you do, or do not live like you do. As I said earlier, especially you, because you are being called to ministry. God is going to be sending you to people that do not live like you do.
Comment: It sounds like you are saying that God is trying to break me out of that way, but it is not my way. The Bible is God’s way. As far as the spanking of the kids, that is not just because I was brought up that way. It is because that is what He says has to be done or they will be rebellious.
Pastor Vitale: I do not think you understood what I said. I will tell you again. What you are saying is right, and I am in agreement with you that you should spank your children. I believe God has put you in this situation to show you that when He sends you to people for ministry, they are not going to be people who are okay. They are going to be people that need help. They are going to have all kinds of error in their life. You may have to be in a relationship with these people, with their error, for a long time before the Lord brings the correction. This is a training ground for you, to live in a situation that is not as you would expect it to be, where you have to cope with it, until God moves. Can you understand what I am saying?
Comment: He has put me there to learn how to cope in this almost impossible situation.
Pastor Vitale: I would say God has definitely put you there. I agree with you, the situation is not right. If the Lord put you there, it is possible. Maybe God is going to bring salvation to that household through you. Maybe Christ is going to come in through you. We do not know what He is going to do.
Comment: Yes, that is possible in Christ. I am facing the impossible part, but it is possible that they may come to Christ. Maybe the headship of that home may come to Christ, but I am facing the impossible part. The result of their rejection of Christ and the word of God is that they do not follow the will of God.
Pastor Vitale: It is not impossible, and it is going to work for your good, because I know you love the Lord, and God is going to be glorified in it.
I heard a testimony a couple of years ago about a man and his wife, who wound up living with a back sliding couple. The circumstances of their life living in this house were very physically unpleasant. There was no room, and it was anything but ideal. Then the woman had a baby, and the two believers living there wound up taking care of the baby. She did not even take care of her own baby. The man was telling me the story. He was crying out to God, saying how could you do this to me? How did you put us in this position? Everything is out of order here, and we do not even have our own home. They were faithful, and they stayed, and well after a year the back sliding couple repented, and came back to the Lord. I understand that they are in the ministry now. This couple that were not backsliders, made the sacrifice of living in this house that was totally out of order, and after a season, the Lord moved. He restored the backsliding believers, and now they are in the ministry. The couple that was living with them left, and the Lord moved them on.
We, who are in the ministry, have to be prepared to live in the midst of any kind of ungodliness, if the Lord sends us there. Now we know all about evangelists that go and live in poverty, in stricken sections of town. They live among the prostitutes and the drug addicts. Well this is the spiritual application of that. God will send us to live in the midst of people that are, spiritually, prostitutes or drug addicts, or spiritually reprobate. We have to exist in the midst of it, without it corrupting us, without us condemning them, and wait for the move of God that is going to bring deliverance to them. It is part of the crucifixion, that we should be crucified, in that we are exposing ourselves to such ungodliness. Why? Because the Lord Jesus Christ said, expose yourself. I can just see you in the garden, crying with great tears. Father, cannot this cup pass from me? The Lord says no. Be crucified.
Comment: I feel like I am still in the fire. I think it gets hot there.
Pastor Vitale: Well you are in the fire. I agree, but God is really calling you in. He is not fooling around because the time is short. I told you before, and I am telling you again, you are called to the firstfruits company. I really believe the catching up is coming very soon, and if you are going to enter in, you have got to be in the fire, because you are not completely trained. I hope I have not offended you. You must know that you are not completely trained. I am trying to put it kindly. You are not ready to enter in. If the door were to open today, in my opinion, you are not ready to enter in. The fact that He has you in such a hot fire says to me that He is going to have you ready when the door opens. Most certainly He will help you to survive this fire. He promised to not give you more than you could bear.
Comment: Will He give me joy in the midst of it?
Pastor Vitale: I hope so, but I cannot promise it to you. I know that is what the Scripture says, but I went for years waiting for that promise to be fulfilled in me. I remember at one point, about three or four years ago, I prayed that prayer. I said, well Lord, I understand that there is no way that I am getting out of this fire. Things had been hot for a long time. If I have to be in the fire, at least give me joy in the midst of it. I had to wait three or four years for it to come to pass. I am not going to lie to you. Maybe He will do it sooner for you.
Comment: I have had joy here and there, but not on a constant level. I would like to live on abiding faith, not looking at the situation the way it is, and just have joy. He promised me. As a matter of fact, I got a word that in the days to come that the joy would come. I have been through a lot of sadness a large part of my life already; rejection, sadness; sorrows. He is working on me in the spirit to get that out. It is not supposed to be there. In Christ it is not there.
Pastor Vitale: Try and focus. The joy is going to come. It is going to come. He is going to do it. It has got to come out. Do you want to play some more songs? How about I Saw The Lord?
Songs: I saw the Lord. I saw the Lord. He is high and lifted up, and His train fills the temple. He is high and lifted up, and His train fills the temple. The angels cry holy. The angels cry holy. The angels cry holy. Holy is the Lord.
I’m so glad Jesus set me free. Glory, alleluia, Jesus set me free. Satan had me bound, but Jesus set me free, singing glory, alleluia, Jesus set me free. I’m on my way to heaven shouting the victory. Glory, alleluia, Jesus set me free.
The weapons of our warfare are not carnal. They are mighty to the pulling down of strongholds. They are mighty, and they are strong to the pulling down of strongholds. They are mighty through the Holy Ghost.
09/02/14 Transcribed by MJS
09/02/14 1ST Edit MJS