134 - 1 Part
EXPOSING THE ERROR OF ULTIMATE RECONCILIATION #1

The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.

 

Pastor Vitale prophesying:

Yea saith the Lord, thou hast sought experiences in God. Thou hast experienced casting out demons, and thou hast had spiritual experiences on that realm, saith God. But I have called thee to spiritual experiences in a higher realm. Indeed the casting out of evil spirits as you have known it has been an experience that I have given to the soul man. But you, I have called unto spiritual experiences in my Spirit. There is a difference between a spiritual experience in the adamic man, which is granted by my Spirit, and a spiritual experience in my Spirit. I've called you to high things saith the Lord, but thou must come out before thou entereth in. I taketh away the first that I might establish the second. I say unto you, I have called you to experiences in my Spirit that will so far surpass what you have experienced as an adamic man casting out demons, that once you enter in, you should never go back. I confess that this in between period can be stressful unto your adamic soul. Take heart, saith the Lord. Hang on to the horns of the altar, deny self, let Adam die, and I shall take you up unto realms that thou hast not even imagined. Trust in me, believe Me, have faith in Me, give up the idols in your heart, and indeed I shall surely be glorified in thee in a manner that you have not experienced before, nor have I experienced in you before, saith the Lord.

The Lord has told us that casting out evil spirits is a spiritual experience of Christ that is given to the adamic man, but He wants to give us spiritual experiences out of His Spirit. He said that we must come out before we enter in, and that we must bear this period. What period? The period where we are not feeling this fulfillment or satisfaction. That is what the Lord has said to us. Glory to God. He said give up the idols in your heart. He has shown me over this last week that to enjoy casting out evil spirits, in a time period that He has assigned you to it, is acceptable to Him. But to lust after it, after He has called you out of that phase of your training, is a compulsive trait. It is as compulsive as any form of co-dependence or addiction. It is compulsive in that it is satisfying your adamic soul, making you feel needed and making you feel important. I am not necessarily lifting this up as pride. Everybody needs to feel important and worthwhile. But we must feel all these things in Christ. There is an in between period, and the Lord has challenged us to believe Him. I believe some of those experiences are traveling in the Spirit, and all forms of high spiritual communication, knowing what is in men's hearts, and spiritual warfare on a level that cannot be comprehended by the natural eye. My experiences have just touched on it. It can be very exciting. All that I can say is that if anybody here is having a problem letting go of the lower realm, if you just confess it to the Lord, I am sure that He will be faithful to deliver you.

If you can honestly see yourself in this, if you can honestly say I think I am bound and I cannot let go unless you manifest the new experience first, He will never do it. He will never express or manifest the new experience simultaneously with the old. Do you know what that is like? It is like a married woman, who is very unhappy with her husband, and cheats while she is married. They say, if I meet another man, I will leave my husband. You have to make a decision in the natural. Is there a legitimate reason to dissolve this marriage? If there is, you get a divorce on the basis of the defect of the marriage, not because there is another man waiting for you. This is the problem that Paul was addressing when He said if a woman or a man cannot live with their spouse, they should depart from them and not marry. What he was saying was, there is a defect in you that you need another man or woman before you leave your present spouse. Either you should not leave him or you should leave him and be alone until the Lord deals with this defect.

Here we find the same thing happening in the realm of the spirit. What does the husband suggest? It suggests provision, a man providing a home for you. He is providing company for you. Maybe you are still engaged in a satisfying sexual relationship with him. If you leave him, what would that mean? You will have to get a job. You will not be able to be home with your children. You will be faced with a choice between celibacy or illegal sex. The woman who is reprobate in her mind will say I am going to get another man. I am going to hop from one house to the other. I am going to have another man waiting for me. I am not going to bear any of the discomforts. I am not going to be without sex. I am not going to be without companionship. I am not going to be without a home. I am not going to be a single parent. I am not going to have to work and not be able to raise my own children. I will get another man first. There is probably nobody here or listening to this tape that does not know that this is an ungodly attitude. Here we find ourselves in the same situation with a spiritual surrounding.

It is comfortable in deliverance. It feels good, compared to the rest of the church world that just sits in their seats like they are in the first grade. We feel useful, and it feels fine until the Lord says, come up higher. Then if we will not come, and we will not come unless He provides the new satisfaction first, this is a manifestation in our soul of an unhappy wife who is lacking whatever it takes to make the break based on the defect. If you can just confess that to the Lord, He will help you. There is never any condemnation in anything that I tell you. Glory to God.

We are going to have an interesting meeting tonight. A woman in the ministry telephoned me recently and told me that she has been reading a book that I gave her. I gave her the book without reading it. I gave it to her because I had a lot of respect for the author. I told her that I was under the opinion, to the best of my knowledge, that there were only three preachers in the United States, or the world as far as I know, that are preaching a message even similar to what we are preaching here. That is me and two other men. I am not going to put their names on the tape. This book was written by one of those men. She called me up a couple of days ago and said she was very surprised that I would recommend this book to her. As she understood it, this man is preaching that we are incapable of sin and even more than that. I have stated on tape and to you personally that what I am preaching here differs from what is known as the doctrine of ultimate reconciliation in the following manner. The doctrine of ultimate reconciliation, to the best of my knowledge, preaches that every individual person alive now or that has passed on will be resurrected in that last day, and that every person that has ever lived will be resurrected. It denies, to the best of my understanding, the judgment. It says that once we have an experience with Christ, that we are incapable of sin.

There are varying different opinions. It is preached, either you just believe it, and it will happen to you. What will happen to you? That Christ will appear in you, or it happens that Christ will appear in you automatically. I do not know any other person that is preaching the judgment the way the Lord has given me the message. Let me recap that. I do not know any other preacher that is preaching the judgment, the death of the adamic soul the way the Lord has given it to me. Referring to the man who wrote this book, I did read in one of his newsletters that he is aware that the personality is not resurrected. He is the only other preacher that I know of that is preaching the personality is not resurrected. What his answer to the problem of all these people who have died is, I do not know. I did not know whether or not he was preaching the judgment. I just know that a lot of the revelation that has come forth here is found in his material.

This woman called me up and she said that she found things in his book that leads her to believe that he does not believe in the judgment, specifically he who is born of God cannot sin, which is suggesting that those of us that are still imperfect cannot sin. I felt the Lord was telling me to ask her to bring the book in. She is going to ask me questions based on his statements. I would just like to make it very clear, I am not here to cut up anybody. That is why I am not putting his name on the tape. We are here to learn, and I believe this is an end time issue of great importance because there is a whole church world out there that believes in ultimate reconciliation. It is not accurate.

As I explained before, and I will put it on this tape, the church world is split into two camps as I see it. I guess you could say it is split into three camps. We have the denominations such as Lutherans and Methodists. I hear that there is revival in these denominations. I honestly do not know whether they believe in the rapture or not, but I do know they have a lot of Catholic ways in them. Then we have the Pentecostal Church, if you want to call it that, which believes pretty much in the rapture, and has very little, if any, deep doctrine. The deepest the doctrine goes in Pentecost, to the best of my knowledge, is into deliverance. If anyone disagrees with me, and you can establish it, please call me or write to me. The Lord has told us that deliverance is a manifestation of the power of God granted to the natural man. Then we move on into the Kingdom Message. The church that is in the Kingdom Message is in two camps. We have the camp that believes in Sonship, but still thinks those that are not born again are going to hell and are going to burn forever. To the best of my knowledge, the Voice Of The Overcomer, which is the descendent of Bill Britton's ministry and those ministries agreed with him, utterly reject ultimate reconciliation. They believe those that are not moving in Christ are going to hell. To the best of my knowledge, that is the last of what they believe. The other side of the Kingdom Church believes in ultimate reconciliation. They believe that everyone is going to get saved, whether they are walking with God or whether they are not walking with God.

Pastor Vitale is now writing on the chalk board dealing with the Kingdom Church:

Does anybody not understand what I mean when I say the Kingdom Church? To most eyes it is split into two camps, but I am going to suggest to you that there is a third camp. The first camp is Sonship after the order of Bill Britton's teachings. There are many many fellowships in the country and in the world still following after that. The characteristics of it is that they deny the Rapture. They believe in power and authority to the believer in place of the Rapture, and they believe in hell and damnation for those that reject Christ. Then we have ultimate reconciliation over here on this side. They also deny the Rapture and believe in power and authority. They, by and large, do not believe in hell and damnation as it is preached in the Church, and they believe all will be saved. That includes those that have died and passed on with or without a salvation experience. They believe every individual personality that has ever lived or shall ever live on the earth shall be reconciled unto God, and in that individual form attain to perfection.

God has given us in this ministry a third choice. The name the Lord has given me for it is perfection. He does not even call it the gospel of the kingdom. He does not call it a Kingdom Church, because He has told me it is so important that this distinction be made, and it is such a fine line that a lot of people even after listening to me for an hour do not understand the difference between what I am preaching and ultimate reconciliation. I am denying the Rapture. I am preaching power and authority. I am denying hell as it is preached in the Church, and I am denying that every individual ever born will be saved. The Lord has shown me that the people in the Sonship camp are going to receive this doctrine before the people in the Ultimate Reconciliation camp. In the Sonship camp, I am going to have to convince them that this is hell, and the experience known as death that we experience down here is damnation. I am in agreement with them that every individual ever born or that shall be born is not going to be saved.

Over here with ultimate reconciliation, I am in agreement with them that this is hell and damnation right here, but they are not ready to give up this doctrine that every human being alive is going to be saved. There are abuses. You see, over here in the Sonship camp, I do not see it as an abuse. I see that their doctrine has evolved to the point of power and authority of the believer, and they have not yet gotten the understanding about hell and damnation. The people that are preaching and believing ultimate reconciliation have gone into error. They got the truth about hell and damnation, and they have got a revelation that God is saving the all, which the Sonship people do not have. They have a revelation that God is saving the all, and then they put their own Satanic doctrine into effect as to how God is going to save the all.

The way they are preaching that God is going to save the all is not correct, but they have got it, denial of the Rapture, power and authority to the believer, denial of hell and damnation, and that God is going to save the all. They have got it up to that point. Then because God, at that point, maybe fifty years ago or whenever it came out, had not yet imparted the revelation of how He is going to save the all, Satan got in there with his false doctrine, Of course, God always has a remnant. I am generalizing. Do not panic over here. I do not know what you are thinking over there in Oshkosh. You may be different. By and large, people that ascribe to this doctrine believe that if you die in an unsaved imperfect condition, there is instruction for you, an opportunity for you to come into perfection on the other side of the veil.

They are preaching that there are meetings like this, and that there are schoolrooms, and there are opportunities for experience on the other side of the veil. This has been going on for quite a while. This past year, three different instances, from three different ministries, have come to my attention, where it is already going one step further. Some people are preaching the teachers in the classroom on the other side of the veil are better than the preachers over here, so let us get our teaching from spirit teachers. It is out there and it is being preached. The Lord has sent me literature from three different ministries across the country in this past year, and it is being received. Every minister that wrote this has received it.

One minister that has received it, has recently written to another minister in California that preaches this ultimate reconciliation that all will be saved automatically. He rebuked him, rightly so, saying you are not telling the people that there are conditions that need to be met. Yes, salvation is available to everybody, but you are not telling them there are conditions to be met. They think they can go skipping down the street, and that it is going to happen to them. That was a righteous rebuke. I thank God for it, but that very same man sends me a book about a woman who is getting taught by a spirit teacher because they know better on the other side of the veil, and they are that much closer to Jesus. I am going to say it again, I do not believe the people in the Sonship camp are in error. We have just gone a little deeper than they have. The people in ultimate reconciliation have gone deeper and they have gone off.

What have we got here under the doctrine of perfection? We have everything Sonship has been taught, and we have everything ultimate reconciliation

has been taught right up to the fact that the all is going to be reconciled. God has given us the truth about how everyone, that has lived or shall live, is going to be reconciled. All I will say on this tape is that our spiritual reality is our human spirit. We are not this personality. I have all sorts of tapes on it. It is a whole message that I cannot preach today.

This is the conflict of the hour. The Sonship Church is really not in as deep as others. The Ultimate Reconciliation Camp is apostasizing rapidly. I personally do not know one preacher, with the exception of only one man out there, that I am not sure about. I should really spend more time reading his material because I am not sure of what he is preaching. This preacher seems to understand that we must go through this judgment, that the enmity in our flesh must be slain, and Christ must appear in us. He understands that it is a process that involves fiery trials and the melting of our elements. They are not preaching it. They are preaching the glory of reconciliation, and nothing about what we have to go through. They are leaving the people naked and unprepared. I am telling you right now in this hour, if you are listening to this tape or if you are sitting here, for whatever God's reason, you have been elected to hear this message. We are going to enter into a new spiritual age very shortly where the judgment leading unto perfection is going to fall on the entire church and eventually the entire world without knowledge. That is described in the Book of Job. The sons of God are going to climb up the walls and enter into their windows and they are going to take them by force. It is going to be likened to a young woman who knows nothing at all about sexuality, who has been raped and finds herself in the labor room.

Pastor Vitale: Does anyone have any question at all on these three areas of the Kingdom Church?

Congregation: Could it be a possibility that the ultimate reconciliation camp does have some truth up to a point, and they believe all men will be saved, but they just haven't got the deeper details? They do not know how and maybe they have not gone deeper to get the understanding.

Pastor Vitale: I am sure it is possible. The only thing I know is that in the Ultimate Reconciliation circles it has been preached for twenty or thirty years already, that the answer to the problem is completion of the perfection cycle on the other side of the veil. Now, of course, there could be people out there that have not heard that, and believe in ultimate reconciliation. That is possible. I cannot account for every individual out there, but it is being preached. The average person that believes in reconciliation will ultimately find their way. There are not that many ultimate reconciliation preachers. There is only a handful of them, so they ultimately find their way to these men that have these international newsletters that are preaching this, but there may be some who have not received it. The problem is that they have not heard the alternate, so they do not know what to choose from. We have just started to preach it here, and I do not know anyone else who is preaching it. They know about the alternate in Nigeria now.

Now they have taken it a step further. We talked about the one step with the spirit teachers. Another direction that it has gone off in is that they are just out there preaching that there is just no evil. Just concentrate on Christ and it is going to come to pass in your mind. They are causing God's children to stumble. For whatever God's reason, there is a period of silence. We read about it in the Book of Revelation. He has not spoken on this issue, and Satan has been in there very busy filling minds with this false doctrine. I am suggesting to you that it is going to be easier for the Sonship people to come into this than it is for the ultimate reconciliation people that believe what I just said, that every individual, even those on the other side of the veil, are coming in. Why? Because of the pride of man. These people over here in ultimate reconciliation are going to have to repent of receiving a false doctrine. If they are prideful, they are not going to be able to do it.

Preachers in ultimate reconciliation have been preaching for twenty or more years that the way the all is going to be saved, their answer to the problem of a human being dying without salvation, is that the salvation procedure continues on the other side of the veil. That means there has to be training and teaching and everything that we are doing here, if their perfection is going to continue. The next step is to decide that the teachers on the other side of the veil are better teachers than the teachers here. Then they are going to start sending evangelists from the other side of the veil to this side of the veil. I am making a joke out of it, but that is what they are preaching. I believe it is not a joke to them. Anyone who wants to pursue this further, we have other tapes. Even for them to say it continues on the other side of the veil, they are talking about the salvation experience ,perfection or processing unto perfection, continues for the individual. We are preaching here that the soul that sins must die in the body. Soul dies because of sin, and it is the human spirit that returns to the Father, that receives the processing. It is a totally different teaching than what they are saying. It is the perfection of the human spirit through its joining to Christ. The personality, the individual personality, is not resurrected.

Pastor Vitale: We will now have some quotes, comments, and questions, taken from the material in the book by a member of our congregation, that I will answer.

Question: There are some really fine line things in here.

Pastor Vitale: I will say one more time that we are not out to get this man. We are out to get the truth, and we are out to get the truth out to the body of Christ.

Question: So those conformed to the image of God are wonders. They come forth as flames of fire. This is the first thing that I talked to you about. They come forth as flames of fire, and corporately are the lake of fire for the purification of the earth. I was excited about that. I felt that was a witness to what we are hearing here.

Pastor Vitale: This was a witness that Christ in us is the lake of fire. I just want to put that on the tape.

Question: I thought about that last night. The sons are the lake of fire, the ones that are coming up, right?

Pastor Vitale: Yes, that is true. It can be taken on two levels. If you recall or you were here for our teachings on the White Throne Judgment, we have taught, based on scriptures found in the Book of Revelation, it takes place on two levels. If you are still an adamic man, if you have not received the ingrafted word, if Christ is not being formed in you, and the Lord wants to bring you up higher, He is likely to send a son to you, someone in whom Christ is being formed. You will find yourself in a confrontation, or at the very least, a relationship with that son. The words that they speak to you that will disagree with the carnal thoughts of your mind that are anchoring you to the earth, will be the words of life that will enter into you. Frequently, it will be through a confrontation, an argument, a disagreement, sometimes more violent than others. Some people are more receptive than others, but it will be a disagreement. When the words of the son are being spoken to you, under the authority of the ingrafted Christ in them, they will enter into your heart, and they will root there. Somewhere along the line, you will conceive, and the word will ingraft to your heart, and Christ will start to be formed in you.

Once Christ starts to be formed in you, then this experience called the White Throne Judgment, will transfer. It will be internalized and transfer into you, and Christ will be judging your adamic soul from within your very own being. There will no longer be any need for Him to send an external person to you when the Christ in you is mature enough to be doing the job. It takes place on two levels. Therefore, the lake of fire is Christ in you, and it is also the corporate body of Christ. Christ in you is the lake of fire for your adamic soul. Your adamic soul is being thrown into the lake of fire in you, and the unregenerate man, in whom Christ is not being formed, to him, the corporate body of Christ is the lake of fire. God could send several sons to him for him to have a confrontation with, so that the word of God is injected into their soul. Did I answer your question?

Question: What I was thinking is that fire is just starting. There are certain sons that are just now coming into perfection or they are headed up there. That fire is starting to flicker, but I almost felt as though how that lake of fire is just now appearing as the sons start to perfect.

Pastor Vitale: Well, it appeared in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Now in this hour, I think it is just beginning. It is a very light flicker.

Question: It is a light flicker started in Jesus and it is starting in a few sons now, but that lake of fire will be when there are many sons. Right?

Pastor Vitale: Not in many sons, but sons in full stature. I do not know how many.

Question: He said He was going to bring many sons into glory. That is going to be like a fire, right? That lake of fire really is not in existence yet, right?

Pastor Vitale: It is in existence, but it is flickering.

Question: If it were hot enough, it would just burn up all the imperfections all over the earth, right?

Pastor Vitale: It is there, but it is just starting.

Question: The removing of the adamic creation from the face of the planet so that every person will be changed into the likeness of Christ. Is that going to happen? I thought the adamic creation was going to be forced within.

Pastor Vitale: Would you read me the whole sentence so I could hear it?

Question: It started out with, so those conformed to the image of God are wonders. They come forth as flames of fire, and corporately are the lake of fire for the purification of the earth. The cleansing of creation, that is the removing of the adamic creation from the face of the planet so that every person will be changed into the likeness of Christ Jesus.

Pastor Vitale: I do not really know what he means by that. The vision God has given us here is that this face of the planet will be converted from Adam to Christ or

from hell unto heaven. I do not really know what he means by removed from the face of the earth. He probably means the same thing that I am saying, but he is saying it in a different way. You said you thought the creation was going to be forced inward. What is going to be forced inward is this vile human body. He must be talking about the actual streets, and buildings, and the polluted waters, and the damaged ozone layer. Since we do not know for sure, I do not think we should waste any more time.

I will just put this on the tape. We are preaching here that this vile body, at this time, has a life sustaining function. Our adamic soul cannot exist without this body. When this body dies our soul dies. If Christ is being formed in us, but has not yet been born in us, He dies too, when this body dies. When Christ is fully born in us, and He is a fully mature man, if this body dies, He does not die. He has the authority, if He wants to, to keep this body from dying no matter what damage is inflicted to it because life is not in this body, but life is in Christ. If you are capable of dying now, even if Christ is being formed in you, I am sorry, your life is not rooted in Christ. If I were to pierce your heart with a knife, you would die. Anyone here going to let me try it? Christ is not sustaining your life. The adamic creation, which is ruled by Satan, is sustaining your life. Why? Because Christ is not fully formed in you. He is not old enough in you or mature enough in you to sustain you. When He is, He will no longer need this body. We found when we did a word by word study in Daniel 7 that the Ancient of Days is the Glorified Christ, which no longer needs a human body like this to survive in. What the Lord is going to do with it is force it inward. It will become the spiritual skeleton. It will be that which gives the creation of God the forearm of a man, and it will no longer have a life sustaining function. That is what we believe here.

Question: This is the next thing I have underlined here. He, who is conformed to the image of God is no longer a man, but rather a son of God. It sounds to me like he is saying that a son, a true son, is one who is conformed to the image of God. I am questioning again, what is a true son? Who is a son, since no one as yet has conformed to the image, unless he is implying that we are in the image of God already and we are not.

Pastor Vitale: I am going to try very hard not to draw any conclusions, but I will address what he said as best as I can. My understanding is that we are sons from the moment the seed, or the Word of God, is engrafted in us, and Christ starts to be formed in us. We are sons in our immaturity. The scripture clearly states that the son in his immaturity is likened unto a servant. He is under tutors, and he is under governors, and he is under severe restriction, and corrective processing. I believe you are a son from the moment the Word is ingrafted. I do not believe you are a son if you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. We will take it a step further. The scripture clearly says that they that walk after the Spirit of God are the sons of God. It is possible to have Christ being formed in you and you are not living out of Him. If Christ is being formed in you and you are not living out of Him, you will be under severe correction. I think the Lord is telling me to stick with what I said. You are a son from the moment He is conceived in you. You could be a son in rebellion or a son walking in order. If you are baptized with the Holy Spirit alone, you are not a son. Praise the Lord.

Question: He is speaking about being conformed to His image. That is to say to be conformed to His image automatically tells us that we are not formed in His image. We are truly not in His image because there is resident in us the knowledge that we do not measure up to His stature although Ephesians 4:12 states that we should come to the maturity of His stature. There is a quandary here, a paradox. The church system has taught we are in His image and on the other hand it is stated we are corrupt and sinful. Out of one mouth spews forth good and brackish water, the very fulfillment of James 3. It is no wonder that the saints are confused in their identity. So what is he saying here?

Pastor Vitale: He is saying we are not in the image of Christ. I agree with him. The church world says we are in His image. If it was not so sad it would be laughable. The most sinful corrupt people are in the church. How dare we say, how dare anybody say we are in the image of God. It defies reason. Any heathen that you would say that to would laugh in your face. Only the church world is naive enough, or should I say proud enough, to believe that they are in the image of God. The only difference between the believer, or the new believer, the one in whom Christ is not yet being formed, and the heathen, is that they have the vehicle to change. The power of God imparted to them is capable of changing them, but they are just as wicked, frequently more so, than the heathen. The believer who has Christ in the process of being formed in Him, is frequently also very wicked. What an abomination to the Lord. Pride is the worst sin in the Scripture. Pride and idolatry are the worst sins we could commit. It is ludicrous to walk around saying we are in the image of God.

Question: Everything I read and underlined and questioned, but these were some of the good things I did not question. To be like Jesus is a process of continual change. Further down, conformity is an ongoing process if you are going to be conformed to God. The old is passing and the new is arising out of the incorruptible seed. Our residence, if we are being conformed to His image is in the new man, which is maturing inside the old man. I questioned that a little bit. I am trying to understand. He is saying that our residence is in the new man, but He is being formed inside the old man.

Pastor Vitale: We talked about that. We said Christ is the flesh of the grape, which is being formed inside the grape skin, which is the carnal mind. We are being formed inside the old man.

Question: Was Paul a manifested son of God?

Pastor Vitale: I believe he was.

Unfortunately we lost about 45 minutes of our message due to recording difficulties. We will pick up at the next point.

Father, Son, Christ, carnal mind, it gets very technical. To me it makes a difference, but if it is putting any confusion on you, at all, I really would not wrestle with it. The lines are very close and they are all overlapping, but I will say this, the Lord is not confused. If He has brought your mind to a place where you can deal with this kind of detail, He knows exactly what He is talking about. I would not let myself get confused over it. It is more important that you grasp the major concept than worry about a shade of difference between a body and a soul.

Question: This is a question of righteousness. I am asking what you think. Some seem to believe that Christianity is religious and should not affect our value system at all. It is alright to be saved, filled with the Spirit, seek a deeper walk and understanding, but at the same time think it is alright to watch an R rated movie. Such a philosophy shows a disregard for the holiness of God and presents a Babylonian garment for our people to see. A few years back I was in a minister's home and he wanted to watch a movie that night. It was his house, his rules, and many times I had to leave the room when explicit fornication was presented on the screen. Can a people who see reconciliation, union with Christ, etc. believe that their corrupt lifestyles is permitted by God? This brother seemed to think so. God, deliver us from such erroneous thoughts.

Pastor Vitale: There is a large element in the church that believes this. They are way out of the way. I do not see how you could be living out of Christ and even watch something like that. There is a great deception in the Kingdom Church in this area of ultimate reconciliation. There is great deception, self deception.

Question: This is another thing he says. The adamic nature, the outer nature, is at enmity with God, and even sets itself up against God in the temple of God, which we are. As this pagan religion outer man reigns, he is Babylon incarnate. Babylon is nothing more than the outer man controlling the saints with the desires of the flesh and the carnal mind. Previously, the Christian has been taught to view the world as Babylon, which presupposes the concept of an external Babylon outside of oneself. As long as that concept reigns in the Christian, the saint fails to perceive the real truth that Babylon resides within.

Pastor Vitale: Babylon is within and without. I believe it is on two levels. I mentioned it several times, spiritual is spiritual. The Scripture says the Lord will be a fire within us and a wall of fire without us. He is speaking about the world of darkness. Isaiah says darkness covers us and gross darkness is within us. Spiritual things are within and without. That is true. To me, there is a contradiction there. When God first started putting me up against this kind of teaching, I used to get very upset when I would read something like that or listen to a tape that was preaching something like that. I have a very logical mind. I could have been a lawyer. I would say to myself, did not this man just say we are born of God and we cannot sin? I would say, what is he talking about? When I was in a position of disciple, and I was looking to this man for instruction, I would get very upset. I would say he just told me I cannot sin. Now he is telling me that Babylon is within me and that it can influence me. What is he talking about? Then I would start shaking like this.

I went through a period where I was listening to a particular preacher preach this. The man had a good reputation and he still has a good reputation. There are a lot of good things about him. I was very upset that I could not accept what he was teaching because I thought he knew what he was talking about and I must have been off. I prayed and I prayed and I prayed, and the Lord told me to put the tapes away. I have listened to one or two of this man's tapes since, but the Lord has brought me into this revelation myself. Now I know that I do not agree with what he is saying, and that there is nothing wrong with me. I want to tell you, brethren, if anyone of you ever get this tape that preaches this, that is not logical. It is contradictory. You are contradicting yourself. You cannot be black and white at the same time. You have got to be black or white. Well, are we dead or are we alive? Which way is it? The reason they get into that kind of trouble is because what they are preaching is not true. They are preaching a lie. It is not accurate and they get to a place where their lie will not function. Their lie will not function in the Scripture, so they come into another area, and if you have ears to hear, it is an outright contradiction.

Question: It says here that failure to perceive this concept keeps the saint from doing what the old nature does. Right there he is saying old nature. I did not know this was logic that was doing this, but I was doing the same thing. He was saying we were in a new nature, but now he is saying I have an old nature, and I should be dealing with it. There is the contradiction that I was talking about.

Pastor Vitale: That is what the preachers in this mind set are preaching. They say he who is born of God cannot sin. Then we say what do we do with this lust that is rising up in my mind? Their answer to it is you have a lower nature and he has to be controlled by your new nature. Do not live out of your old nature. Ignore him and live out of your new nature. If someone goes to them and says I am failing to live out of my new nature, depending on the circumstances, they will either tell you that your experience is not valid, is not realistic, it has not happened to you, or in some way you are failing. It is wicked. It is wicked. There is no hope for someone that has a realistic mind and sees their frailties. There is no hope of salvation because they are being told they have to do this in their own strength. There is no hope for them.

Question: He goes on to say that there are some saints that become eunuchs. Is he talking about these eunuchs becoming divine messengers or that they are called angels? Then he goes on to say that they become light and they reveal the brightness of the new day.

Pastor Vitale: On what basis do they become light? Is it simply because they refrain from sex?

Question: It does not say anything about refraining from sex at all. It is talking a lot about angelic ministry, so I am not going to go through the whole thing. The brightness of His coming is the light, the darkness is removed, death is done away, destruction is no more. Babylon has fallen. How so you ask. Well friend, there are some saints that have become eunuchs for the sake of the Lord. They have set aside all desires. He is talking about eunuchs. I do not even know if he is talking about those who just deny their married life or marriage at all.

Pastor Vitale: He is talking about setting your soul life aside and just living for Christ.

Question: That is what I think he is saying a eunuch is. Setting aside all desires to produce life after the lower order, they have desired only to manifest the very life of God and nothing else. These eunuchs are counted worthy to produce the life of God and do so by becoming the angels "divine messengers." These angels are sent forth from heaven, not the natural heaven, but the realm of life in the Spirit of Christ Jesus. They proclaim out of their beings words of creation life even as Jesus did. Their words bring down the heavens and carnality. When I read this, I was thinking this is what Pastor Vitale does. You do this kind of thing, that you are a divine messenger. I thought that you fit into this realm. These having been the advanced guard of the age to come. Now I do not know what advanced guard means.

Pastor Vitale: They are the ones that are going first into the age to come. I do want to make a comment at this point about eunuch hood. You could be a eunuch on two levels. As far as being a physical eunuch goes, we all know that is to not engage in sexual intercourse. That is only as God calls you to it and it is a gift. There is a spiritual eunuch. We know we have spiritual sexual parts. Paul talks about girding up the loins or the reproductive parts of your mind. Our reproductive parts is our mind. We know that Satan has had spiritual sexual intercourse with Eve and has produced the carnal mind. Now both Satan and the carnal mind have intercourse with Eve at will. When we talk about a spiritual eunuch, we are talking about a man whose true spiritual reality is his human spirit, who because he had been strengthened by Christ, refuses all sexual activity of the mind with both Satan and the carnal mind. The Father has penetrated the carnal mind, has fertilized Eve, has produced Christ, and she is joined with Christ. He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Even though part of her is still attached to Satan, she is joined to Christ to such a measure of strength that she is standing in refusal to fornicate with Satan in the carnal mind. That is the spiritual eunuch, but she is joining with Christ in a spiritual sexual union.

We have found scriptures that have told us that in the end of all things, at the reconciliation of all things, Satan is going to be castrated. We found that in Ezekiel Chapter 1. He is the wild raging bull that is going to be castrated. He will lose his ability to fornicate with Eve. The carnal mind is something that is created within us from second to second. We found this in Ezekiel Chapter 1 also. This whole world system is an illusion that can be likened to a moving picture film. I know we have camcorders today, but I cannot relate this to camcorders because I do not know how they work. Years ago we had moving picture films. There was a series of negatives,

that when flicked very quickly, created a moving picture. We found in Ezekiel Chapter 1 that this is how this whole world system is formed. It is the continuous spiritual interaction between Satan and Eve that is producing the carnal mind, which is our personality in this realm of appearance. When Eve refuses him, when she finds the strength in Christ to refuse him, which is his castration, the carnal mind will disappear. Simultaneously therewith, she is joining with Christ in sexual union, and Christ will become her personality. This is all happening. It is a process. Christ will become her personality. We are switching over, and until the process is complete, we are both. We are double minded and unstable in all our ways.

Question: From what I am getting here, this has nothing to do with whether or not you are married in the natural at all. Is this so?

Pastor Vitale: I do not really have it a hundred percent straight in my head. I do not want to discourage you young people, but I will tell you the truth about what I think.

I think you can develop spiritually so far while you are engaging in legal marriage sexual intercourse. To develop further, I believe that you have to give it up. This is my understanding of it, and I will tell you why I think that. Human sexuality is an activity that involves the body and it is a very carnal activity. It is legal in marriage. The marriage bed is undefiled. If God gives you a husband, get married and enjoy it, but I am telling you the truth that you can only develop so far, spiritually, while engaging in animalistic behavior. Human sexuality is what the animals do. I am not putting it down. The truth is going to set you free. Choose, but know the truth. You can only develop so far spiritually while you are still engaging in this behavior. Why? Because it is weighing you to this soulish realm.

If you want to ascend, and eventually come to a place where you do not need this body to live in, you have to start giving up the activities of this body. Do not give it up as a religious work. You have to be called to this. Jesus Christ has to give you the opportunity to enter into a realm where He is going to give you the opportunity to enter into a realm where He is going to let you ascend so high that it will be damaging to this move to engage in sexual activity. If He has not called you to it, and you give it up, it is just a religious work that is doing you no good at all. You get before God and you find out what He has for you. If He has a marriage for you, you get married and you enjoy it. Do not get into any bondage over this, but I have just told you the truth. To ascend to full stature, in my opinion, you cannot be engaging in sexual activity. You will have to give up the use of this body.

Question: All sexual activity will be in the spiritual realm. It will be beyond the body and beyond the soul too. Right?

Pastor Vitale: I personally believe it will be more satisfying than human sexuality. We were talking about this earlier, there is that wilderness experience, where you give up your sexuality and it may be pretty hairy until you enter into a place where you are being satisfied. It may not be too easy or too pleasant, but I am convinced that it is preferable. I do not want anyone to think I am against marriage. I am not. I am telling you the truth. You have to find out what God is calling you to. You really cannot live in both worlds without being weakened. Many of us think we are very spiritual, but we really are not. The truth is, the more your activity centers in this world, the less spiritual you are. The Lord may not even be giving you a choice. He may be telling you, I have a husband for you. Then get married, but I am not going to lie to you. Marriage is an earthy life where you spend large periods of time in the flesh, having sexual intercourse, bathing your babies, feeding your babies, breast feeding your babies, washing clothes, and preparing food. It weighs you down here, but the Lord may not be giving you a choice. He may be saying to you, I am not calling you to spiritual things for another twenty years, so go and get married. Do you understand what I am saying? I am not going to lie to you. I am not against sex.

Question: I thought you said that a person could be a son and be married at the same time with special dispensation. Is there such a thing as a special dispensation?

Pastor Vitale: There is such a thing as a special dispensation, but in my opinion, it would happen, in most instances, after your children are grown. God could do anything He wants. When you have young children you become immersed. It is so draining on your time and your energy, that I would be surprised if God would take a young woman with three children, involved in all of these pursuits, and make her a son, although He could do it if He wants to. It is much more likely that He would go to a married woman, whose family is grown. Maybe she has to cook for her husband a little bit, but it is not nearly the same thing as being involved with children. Children just take everything out of you. In my opinion, He is not likely to go to a young woman with children to have an intense relationship such as sonship with them. Although, if you are married and have children, you can go to church, you could listen to tapes, you could read your Bible. You can have some relationship with Him, but you can only have one primary relationship in your life. When you are married and you have children, nature dictates that that primary relationship is your family. It cannot be any other way or it would not be fair to your husband and children.

Question: What did you say a son was? A son is someone who has conceived Christ and Christ begins to be formed in them. If a person is married, they can conceive Christ and Christ can start to be formed in them. Right? You are talking about this deeper intense relationship.

Pastor Vitale: I am talking about living out of Him, really ascending and living in Him. You cannot do two things at once. We only have twenty-four hours in a day. God has everything under control.

Question: I want to ask you about these angels that are revealed, able to slay the king of Babylon, to slay the religious mind of man. He talks about four different mind sets that are the carnal mind. I would like to hear what you have to say about this, to slay the religious mind, the political mind, the social mind and the economic mind of man. He says because of the work of grace done in them, each of these four minds are carnal and contrary to the Kingdom of God. Is this true?

Pastor Vitale: That is probably true. You have to be called to it. Let us start with the economic mind. This I can minister to you out of personal experience because the Lord has called me into a faith walk for my finances. The economic mind is a walk that totally requires me thinking in a totally different way than a person who works for their living. When you work for your living, you expect to get paid. You work for an hour and you expect to get paid. Wisdom or the fulfillment of God's laws would involve saving some money, budgeting your money and everything that good financial principles would involve. When you live by faith, it does not work that way. At least in the place where God has me now, there is no way I could save. I have gone before the Lord and cried out and said to Him, Lord, I do not even know how to budget because I do not know what is coming in from day to day. Forget about week to week. I do not know what is coming in from day to day. Then He is telling me that one of the principles of this lifestyle is you cannot hoard it. Do not hold on to it. I have a five dollar bill in my hand, and I want to put it away for my phone bill, and He says, no, spend it. It is the exact opposite of the rules that apply for the carnal man. When he says that you have to slay the economic mind, that is true, but let me tell you, if you slay it before God has given you entrance to a faith walk in God, you could find yourself on the street.

Question: I have experienced this. I even have tried to slay it with my own soul and I ended up on the street. Amen. I was trying to lose my economic mind. I have had all kinds of experiences.

Pastor Vitale: You lost it alright. Pastor Vitale and woman are now laughing about these experiences.

Question: This says that there are angels that are appointed by God that are able to slay this kingdom of economics that would keep the true finances from God coming through. Is this so? Am I to expect an angel in my life to slay that?

Pastor Vitale: I have to disagree with him somewhat there. What I perceive in this statement in this book is another instance of a human mind saying I am going to choose the time that I can enter into this realm of God. I do not believe any man can choose to enter into any realm of God. God has to grant you entrance into that realm. I had a word that I was going to be in ministry, and a year later it had not manifested, so I decided to do it myself. It was a disaster. I could not enter into ministry until God said now. You cannot enter into a faith walk for finances until God says now. However, you can put your toe in the water. You can understand the principle of sowing and reaping. You could understand the principle of sowing your funds into a ministry. It is very important to sow your money in a ministry. It is very very important, but to give away everything and have no money in the bank like I live, God has to have brought you into that realm or you are going to be in a lot of trouble. Go very slowly.

God has shown me a lot of patience. I have been so slow, He has been dragging me all the way. At this point, I am convinced that it is Him, and I am having some peace. I prayed all the way in, Father, if this is not you, I am sure to be

destroyed. I prayed this way for over a year. Father, all I am asking you is if I am entering into a false realm, just deliver me from it. I want to serve you, but I am concerned that it is a spirit of destruction upon me. Apparently, it was Him because He has very much brought me in. You just pray every step of the way, but we cannot bring ourselves into a spiritual realm of our own will and accord. God will give us an overlapping. We must sow our finances into the Kingdom. We must sow everything into the Kingdom. The Hebrews tithed on everything. We must give Him our substance, but not to be a fool. You do not empty out your ice box and have nothing to eat.

We can start by experiencing this realm, and showing God good faith in this realm, that if somebody needs something, and we do not need it, I think it blesses God to give it to them. It depends on what it is. If it is something that you need to earn your living, and you give it away, you are going to go into poverty. You have to use wisdom. We start out that way. I do not know what he means. If he means that you take a person that would never give a dollar away, and they had to slave for it, and start sowing finances into the Kingdom, that is okay. If he means to give it up completely, then my answer is be very careful. I am not sure what he means.

Question: Could there be a messenger or an angel that would come into my life that would begin to slay that in me?

Pastor Vitale: Yes, it is Christ in you.

Question: Why does the social mind have to be slain?

Pastor Vitale: Does he tell you what he means by that? I know what I think he means, but he does not say what he means.

Question: Also, what is wrong with the social, religious, political and economic mind? What is the social mind?

Pastor Vitale: Let me answer the political mind first because I think that is going to be shorter. We have a lot of people in this country who are interested in politics. Their politics are rooted in many motives, usually self interest. I know that the Jehovah Witnesses claim to be apolitical. They do not vote and they will not take a political stand. I do not believe in that because I believe we are living in the flesh, and we are living in this country, and we have the privilege of voting. I ask the Lord whom He wants me to vote for and I vote. I believe in being politically active in that sense. However, I do not base my vote on my own self interest. I do not base my vote on a candidate that is going to lower my taxes or that is going to benefit me. I ask the Lord who do you want me to vote for. I believe in political activism. There are probably a lot of people that will disagree with me and that is fine.

I believe in what Pat Robinson is doing in that he has raised up an organization of attorneys that will defend people that have been politically persecuted. Now I am not called to that. I believe that everybody that names the name of Jesus has a job in this world system. The kind of things God calls me to are spiritual things. If Pat Robertson is the man God has raised up to do it, I thank God for him and what he does. He deals with carnal people, some who are not even saved, and he has raised up this political organization that has had a lot of success. They petition the government, complain about tax dollars going for pornography, abortion, and all of these things. I believe that for the church people that are called to it, it is of God. God has not called me to that, but I believe He has called the Church to it, and everyone who is called to it knows that. There are a lot of people in the Church that will not believe those that are involved in anti-abortion moves, and will not believe those who are involved in political activism. They say you are suppose to die to that. I do not believe that.

I believe there are different functions in the Church. We are a body and everybody does not have the same function. It has been my experience in Christ, that when it is necessary for a change to be made, He will only make that change supernaturally when all natural methods fail. In this country, where our government is open to political change, through certain established channels, God has shown me that He is not about to move supernaturally. He elected conservative Presidents that put conservative justices in the Supreme Court. We are experiencing tremendous change. He has anointed Pat Robinson, and raised up this organization of lawyers that help Christians that are persecuted. I believe God is in it all. We need Christians that are willing to do this carnal work, and they are most likely carnal Christians, and I thank God for the carnal Christians. Someone has got to do it. There are preachers or people that say no, you are not suppose to be politically active at all. It is all spiritual, you should just pray, and leave it to God. You pray, and leave it to God, and God goes to a man and says do it. Someone has got to do it. If that is what he means, I do not agree with what he is saying.

Question: Is there any political part of us that is suppose to be slain?

Pastor Vitale: The only political part of us that is suppose to be slain is politics for our own advantage. Most people will vote in a manner that will serve their carnal advantage. I remember when I was a very young woman, working for a law firm at the time, when they were just passing a law that would charge more taxes for the rich. It would benefit the middle and the poor classes. It was a high quality law firm. Most of the attorneys were very wealthy. I was speaking to this attorney, and his opinion was that it had to be. I looked at him because he was going to get taxed, and I could not believe that he was saying amen, this has to be. I asked him about it and he said, well, it is the right thing. Even though it is going to cost me more money, I acknowledge that it is the right thing. At the time, I was a very reprobate young woman. I said wow, this man is nuts. He is not doing what is in his own self interest.

What am I saying? Right now, I will give you a modern example. This country is in a lot of trouble. Our debt has to be wiped out. We are going to break financially if something is not done. My feeling is, as long as it is not corrupt politicians, if I were to believe that it was God, or people that God raised up, I would be willing to pay any taxes I had to pay to strengthen this country. I would be willing to pay the price and make my sacrifice. I am not willing to turn my whole life over to corrupt politicians, that are going to take my money, and not make the nation safe. If I felt it was God, if God told me to do it, that He was in it, I would pay any tax rate to pull this country out. The average person out there is only thinking about their pay check tomorrow. They are figuring out their 1992 tax form, and they do not want to pay it. This is selfishness that will self destruct the county and utterly destroy it.

I was just asked when they passed the law that pornography was legal. It was about twenty years ago, and I remember when it was illegal. I believe it was a Federal Law that was passed, and they called it freedom of expression. It is a joke. If I am not mistaken the local areas regulate it, but the Federal law says it can be dispensed.

Question: The only thing I do not understand is that prostitution is against the law, and pornography is almost like prostitution. I am a little bit surprised why they would allow it. Pornography people are engaging in actual sex, the same thing that prostitutes do.

Pastor Vitale: It is not rational. The country is in a lot of trouble. Probably, somebody is making a lot of money out there. The Mob is in prostitution. There are all kinds of things involved that I do not know about. The country is corrupt.

Now I am addressing the social mind. Again, I am not sure what he means, but this is what it means to me. Most people have prejudices of one form or another. They stay in separate ethnic groups and keep to themselves. We find, in Christ, that has to come down. The biggest barrier is the color barrier. The lines of religion are not that strong in this country anymore. I do not know about other countries. There was a time when the Catholic Protestant war was very real. Again, it is still pretty real in Ireland, and in some countries. In this country, the Catholic Protestant war is not too strong. You will even find those that do not like the Jews. You still find it here and there, but it is not that strong. The color barrier is the big problem here, and we find it in the Church. It has to come down. God is calling it to come down, and it has to come down. It is a big problem for a lot of people. I think that is what he is talking about. Of course, cliques have to come down, but also we cannot say we do not want to fellowship with someone because they are of another color.

Question: Talking about the social mind, I thought he meant wanting to socialize when you need to be alone with Jesus.

Pastor Vitale: Well, that is possible. I cannot read his mind, but that is a possibility.

I have just been through that myself. I live by myself, and for years I did not like it. I fought against it, and now I really would not want it any other way. He is so real in my life. I talk to Him continuously, but it really bothers a lot of people. They ask who do you live with? I say I live with Jesus. Then they say, oh you live alone. No, I live with Jesus. I live with Jesus. They cannot comprehend it. Then I have people coming to me and saying that they are praying for me that I should not be living alone. I said, please do not pray that on me. They cannot bear it if you do something that flies in the face of tradition. I see my neighbors peeking out from behind their venetian blinds every time someone rings my doorbell. For eight years they have been trying to catch a man in my house and they cannot do it. (Laughter) To the carnal mind, the way I live is not natural. I am still a young attractive woman, and they cannot believe my life. When they do not see a man, they start looking for other kinds of lifestyles. They just cannot believe it. Nothing clicks because I am not doing anything. They look at me and say Pastor Vitale is still an attractive woman. What is her problem? There must be something wrong with her. They cannot deal with it. Yes, they are perverted in their mind. They think you are like the nuns and the priests, which they find acceptable. It is just mind control, I guess.

Question: There a lot of young nuns and priests who decide they want to be celibate and give up their lives for God and the world is okay with that.

Pastor Vitale: That is a very interesting point. It is just the mind control of the Catholic Church. It is okay for them, but how dare I do it when I am not part of the denomination. How dare I do it when God is my head. How dare I do it. It is just anti-christ going crazy.

Question: The Greek intimates in verse 6 of Romans 6 that the body of sin not only means the natural body, but the very soul as well. Here he is talking about the body means the soul. Adam was made a living soul, Genesis states in Chapter 2. What does this mean? Simply that when we are crucified with Christ, the body of sin is removed. That is the sin nature no longer exists.

Pastor Vitale: When we are truly crucified with Christ, the two are joined, and of the twain He made one new man. That is what happened to Jesus on the cross, but it has not happened to anyone else yet.

Question: The soul, adamic, which did live, died because of sin. We know that the soul that sins dies, Ezekiel 18. The soul is revealed from what it was by Jesus, Immanuel, Savior of His people. He gave His soul as an offering for sin, yet we find so many things so indoctrinated by the Church system that they do not believe that they are alive in Christ. He is saying that they are indoctrinated by the Church system if they do not believe they are alive in Christ. Why? Because by teaching the people that the sin nature still exists in them, the Church system has power over the people and controls them.

Pastor Vitale: He just said a couple of pages back that we had to resist the sin nature, the old nature. You see, it is total confusion.

Question: The system feeds them spiritual food, but denies them the life working of it. The saint focus believes that he has the spiritual food to energize the adamic nature

rather than for the development of the new creation man.

Pastor Vitale: What he is saying is that it is all in the mind. If you believe you are in the new nature, you are. It is putting the burden on the natural man, saying you do it in the mind control, and you have got it.

Question: He is calling what you are saying pharisaical. He is saying ,subtlety, that is the very essence of the adamic nature found in the pharisees of today. They give form for substance rather than life which is substance. Paul goes on to say that just as a dead body is buried in the ground, that buried body literally cannot sin any longer. Of this there is a surety. So also is Paul saying, by using this analogy that the saint who has been freed from sin, Romans 6:18, cannot use his mortal body, that natural body, any longer for sin. What do you think of this?

Pastor Vitale: It has to happen to you. I once read in the newspaper about a woman that wanted a baby so badly. She could not conceive and she wanted it so badly that she believed she was pregnant. She was eating and eating and she was getting fatter and fatter. Nine months came and she did not have the baby. It is called a phantom pregnancy, the sister just said. Ten months went by and she did not have the baby. In those days they did not have the prenatal care we have today. She went to the doctor and he had to tell her she was not pregnant. She looked like she was fully pregnant. I am saying the same thing, it was psychological. We cannot enter into life through mind control. We cannot enter into life because Adam believes it has happened to us.

It is an experience, it is a reality, it must happen to us. Brethren, it can only happen to us when Jesus does it to us, and does it through us. We cannot force it. It is just like a natural woman needs a man to impregnate her. I know we have all these perversions today and in vitro pregnancies. I am not talking about that. In the natural, you need a man to get pregnant, ladies, and you have to spend nine months in your pregnancy to have your baby. It has to happen to you. Jesus is in control. It has to be the season for it, and He has to beget Christ in you. This is wickedness telling these people this. If you want to call me a pharisee, call me a pharisee. I am telling you the truth.

Question: Was the woman who had the phantom pregnancy married? I thought that maybe she was not married, and did not have somebody, and she just thought she was pregnant.

Pastor Vitale: I think she was married. It is not so much true today, but years ago if you were married and you did not have a child, it was a great disgrace. Today, a lot of people do not care. This doctrine that is coming forth here is the doctrine that is going to split this ultimate reconciliation church. It is apostasized already. If you have any questions about why we get hit with the kind of warfare that we get hit with, brethren, this is the doctrine that is going to bring in perfection. This is it. It has been in-part up until now. As we said, the sonship people have not gone far enough, and the ultimate reconciliation people have apostasized, and now the Lord is coming in. I do not know, maybe there is something beyond this. I am not saying there may not be, but it certainly is the next level of truth that He is bringing forth into our world, into our age. We are getting blasted, but we have to believe, whoever of us gets hit with this severe spiritual warfare that is in this ministry, that Jesus is going to keep you. We are in a very high calling here. Why God has called us, I do not know. He knows why He called us. I cannot tell you why, but we are here. If you get hit with the warfare, you just have to know that the Lord is going to bring you through, if you just hang in there. The warfare is intense.

Question: This is a true statement, but the truth of it is lost on many saints because they still sin, miss the mark, and look to the wrong identity.

Pastor Vitale: That means you can sin. It is a confusion.

Question: Many saints still focus on the adamic, that old nature, and deny Christ. They deny that they are in Christ and are free to express the very image that He is in them.

Pastor Vitale: I want to tell you that if you have not got an understanding of what God is bringing forth here, you can really be condemned by that. You can really be condemned by it.

Question: When I read this, I know that this was the kind of stuff I received in the other ministry I was in. I was thinking what we were suppose to be doing was looking at Christ, and looking at Christ in the other person. We are not suppose to be looking at the adamic, and if we are not doing that, then we are not in Christ.

Pastor Vitale: What is the truth? The truth is we are suppose to be looking at the adamic, and we are suppose to be killing it.

Question: We are suppose to be facing the adamic and killing it, and we are suppose to be looking at Christ and thinking about Christ. Right?

Pastor Vitale: They are preaching half a message. Yes, we are suppose to be looking at Christ. I pray all the time if I am having a problem with somebody. I say, Lord, let me love them for what they are in Christ. Yes, we are suppose to be doing that. We are also suppose to be dealing with the sin in a Godly manner. These people that preach this are preaching half a message.

Question: Beloved, the old heavens has passed away. He is saying our old mind has passed away.

Pastor Vitale: How come it can still cause us to sin? It is confusion.

Question: The new heavens is here. The old earth has passed away. The new earth is here. If earth is body as he says, how come there is not a new body, because he is saying there is a new earth now. Is he saying I am in the spirit or what?

Pastor Vitale: I do not know what he is saying, but there is a new body and there is a new soul, but they are co-existing. Depending upon where you are in Christ, the soul of Christ may be weaker than your adamic soul. They totally deny the warfare. This is Armageddon, the battle of the two souls or the two minds.

Question: He talks about physical change or not. He makes some comments about Paul. He says Paul revealed the resurrected life. Paul, who was in Christ, raised himself from the dead because of the nature of God being so strong in him to do so.

Pastor Vitale: Does he give a scripture for that? Do you hear that? This is what this group says. They give the glory to the man. He did it himself. That is what they preach. I am disappointed.

Question: Some would say that Paul did not have a changed body, a glorified body, so relationship makes one alive in Christ, not physical change or a certain dispensational time. He is telling me if I think that Paul was not raised from the dead, that I am wrong because what I am doing is looking at Paul's outward body and saying he does not have a glorified body, so he was not an ascended Christ.

Pastor Vitale: You could be raised from the dead, but not be glorified. Jesus Christ of Nazareth was raised from the dead before He was crucified. His soul was raised from the dead before He was crucified. After His crucifixion He was glorified.

Question: Paul was alive unto God. Did not Paul say we should follow him as He followed Jesus? I Thessalonians and I Corinthians 4: 15-16. How does he say such unless He was like Christ? Paul was alive unto God. He was not alive in Adam. He did not reside in Adam. When he arose from the dust of the earth after being knocked off the ass when God visited him on the road to Damascus, Paul left the dust. He shook off the dust from off of himself, his adamic nature. He arose, resurrected out of the adamic side and he sat down in heavenly places with God.

Pastor Vitale: Then why did Paul need Ananias to lay hands on him and pull him out of his blindness? Let me say this. I believe that resurrection is in more than one stage. Resurrection is in three stages. Remember, Christ is coming forth within our adamic soul. Adam is layering on top of Christ and ruling. Even when he is ruling, part of the time we are still dead. If you have studied math, at all, and you know anything about algebra, you will know that a plus and a minus equals a minus. Two minuses equal a plus. Right now for our purposes, we are saying a plus and a minus equals a minus. If you have Adam manifesting some of the time, Christ is positive and Adam is negative, you are negative, which means you are dead. As long as Adam is manifesting some of the time, you are still dead. The resurrection is in three stages, and the first stage of the resurrection is that Christ, in His position of weakness, takes authority over Adam, and refuses to let him sin. This was the condition of Jesus Christ of Nazareth after the baptism and before His experience in the garden of Gethsemane.

Question: Was that the condition of Paul, that Christ in Paul, ruled his adamic soul? Was he in perfection?

Pastor Vitale: I believe that Paul was in this condition. I am not going to answer that question right now because I am getting very tired, and I do not want to say something that is not correct. I am not putting you off. This, I believe, was the condition of Paul. Christ was in a position of weakness and ruled his adamic soul, and refused to let it sin one hundred percent of the time.

Question: You are telling us that Christ in Paul refused to let Paul sin one hundred percent of the time.

Pastor Vitale: Yes, Christ in Paul controlled Adam one hundred percent of the time.

Question: That means Paul was living without sin.

Pastor Vitale: I believe that. It was not all the time. It was not at the beginning of his walk. We know he was sick, almost unto death. I believe it happened somewhere after his internment by Rome.

Question: Then you are not offended by what this man says here.

Pastor Vitale: I do not agree with it.

Question: What is it that you do not agree with then? It sounds like the same thing.

Pastor Vitale: That is true, but I do not believe it happened when Paul was knocked off his horse.

Question: You disagree about the time, but you do agree Paul was resurrected in Christ.

Pastor Vitale: Yes, I believe that. Let me put all three stages of resurrection on the board for you.

This is the first stage of resurrection. Christ having total rulership over Adam, from His position of weakness. This was the condition of Jesus Christ of Nazareth before the resurrection, after the baptism and before the resurrection. The second stage of resurrection happened to Jesus Christ in the garden of Gethsemane. That famous account of Him begging God to let this experience pass from Him is not true. We looked up every word in the Greek, and it does not mean any such thing. He was praying to the Father to permit the Christ in Him to penetrate His adamic soul, otherwise known as the circumcision without hands. Christ is a sharp cutting instrument. He is sharp around all of His edges. He is a circular sword and He has the ability to expand outward and pierce through the soul of Adam, which is made out of clay. Christ is likened to gold, hard metal, and it has the strength to pierce through the clay of the adamic soul. This happened in the garden of Gethsemane. Christ exercised His spiritual strength, and expanded and pierced through the ring of the adamic soul that was surrounding Him. His spiritual condition changed. He forced Adam to the inside, and He took the dominant position on top of Adam.

This is the second stage of resurrection. Christ no longer ruling from a position of weakness, but Christ ruling from a position of dominance. Adam, ruled by Satan, is still alive, and still able to get his thoughts to the very heart of the man, but Jesus Christ of Nazareth would not fornicate with those thoughts. He cast down every imagination, rejected every thought, rejected every suggestion, one hundred percent of the time.

This is the third stage of the resurrection. It happened on the cross. You saw a man with nails, nailing Him to a stake, but this is what was happening on the other side of the veil. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who was now layering on top of the adamic soul, and in the dominant position, slew this man, the adamic soul. He slew the enmity in His flesh. He slew him so that he could no longer hear his whisper. He killed him. It was the death of death, and of the twain, He made one new man. He joined them in death. Adam is joined to Christ in death, and he became one new man, the creation of God, the Glorified Man. The three stages of resurrection. Alleluia !!! Glory to God.

Hang on for a minute. There is a real excitement in my soul. I do not know whether it is the revelation or whether the Lord is going to do something. Just hang on for a minute here and I will have a drink of water. I just felt like I was almost going to go through the ceiling, I got so excited at that. Alleluia !!! Wow! ! ! I felt like I was coming out of my body. I am still saying what I have been saying for the past couple of years. I hope you are all with me, but if I am the only one going through, I thank God for this doctrine. I want to tell you it is worth everything I have been through. It is better than anything I have experienced, and I look forward to the day that He is going to let me have this doctrine with spiritual experiences. I know that it is coming. It is a little dull here because we are in a schoolroom. For the last five years it has been study, study, study. I do not know when the spiritual experiences are going to start, but it is worth it. It is worth it.

Man, look at that board, will you: three stages of resurrection. I bless all these men that are preaching this false doctrine. I pray that God blesses them like He has blessed us. I bless every soul that hates this message. I bless every man that would kill us if they had the chance to shut our mouths. I pray that God does the same glory upon them that He does upon us, and that He has mercy upon them and forgives their sins, and that He bring them to the same place. They hate it. They hate it. Why do they hate it? Because they are one hundred percent Adam. I just proved to you how Adam is going to die. They hate it. They do not want to die. He wants to become God. He wants to go sit in Washington and be a Senator. Alleluia. Glory to God.

Can you imagine that man, Jesus Christ, and how He experienced this with no elder. It was just Him and God, growing up knowing who He was, no witness to it all, except the Spirit of God. Do you know what it must have been like for Him? Then God gave Him disciples, and no one ever knew what He was talking about, that is if they were staying awake. Most of the time they went to sleep. If they stayed awake, they did not know what He was talking about. He told them He was going to be crucified, and they looked at Him. My God, what it must have been like for Him. I am telling you, if I am all alone, I am going through to the fullest degree that God lets me. If I am all by myself, I am going. I hope you are with me, and I am not turning back for nothing, man. This is glory. Wow! ! ! It is quite incredible, is it not?

I wonder what he would do with that scripture where Paul says we have to slay the enmity in our flesh. I wonder what he would say about that. We have to remember that we are not here to show anybody up, and we are not here to challenge anybody. We are here to impart the message of life to them. We really cannot do it if they are not willing to hear it. What we are doing here now is that God has raised up a small group. He has had mercy on me. If He told me to do it, I would be preaching to the four walls, just to get the message on the tapes, but He has not asked me to do that. He has raised up a few people to be here with me listening. A lot of people have washed out because the warfare has been too much for them. I do not condemn anybody. They just did not survive the warfare and they are not here anymore. They jumped out of the war. They got knocked out of the war. I do not condemn anybody. It is very tough. I believe that what He is doing is that we are the forerunners, and we are paying this price. This library of tapes is being formed, and at the proper moment, the Lord is just going to do whatever He is going to do with them. They are already going out. They are being received in Nigeria. The word is not being received in the United States. It is quite incredible.

Question: Nigeria has seen the depths of Satanism, and they are on their way up. They have experienced the depths of poverty, the occult and Satanism. Do you think that has anything to do with it?

Pastor Vitale: I think more than that, what it has to do with it is that they are the descendants of Ham. We have found out that Ham was the one righteous son that sounded the alarm when Noah backslid. They have experienced the depths of depravity because of Noah's unrighteous curse upon them. They are the descendants of the man that really loved God, and they recognize the truth as it comes to them. Now there are always exceptions. This is just a general rule that the people here in the United States are the descendants of Shem, who did not stand for the righteousness of God. They backslid. Shem and Japheth joined together and backslid. As I see it, God is raising up the descendants of Ham first. They fell down into the depths of witchcraft. They paid a terrible price because their ancestors stood for righteousness. Now He is bringing them up first and fast as a people. Obviously, there are exceptions because we are here, and there are exceptions over there, but I am telling you this word is not catching on in this nation. We are a nation of pharisees, and they do not want to hear it. We will see what God is going to do. I do not know myself what He is going to do. I just know that it caught in Nigeria. What the next step is, I do not know.

This other message is also in Nigeria. These men are in Nigeria preaching this other message. What God is going to do, I do not know. I just know He brought me to a group of people over there that just received the word. They just knew it was the truth. There was one woman that manifested. She was hostile towards me and she walked out. The next night the Lord said to me she will be back. She did not come that night, but she came the next night. She said, I got on the bus to go home and the Lord spoke to me and said, who do you think you are? He rebuked her strongly after she walked out on me. She came back and she really got a large measure of freedom. This is very interesting. There was another woman who came against me very strongly, and the Lord had told me she would repent. When she did repent, she said the same thing to me, that the Lord came to her and said, who do you think you are? I find that very interesting. He corrects the ones He loves. Why is He not correcting more people in the United States?

Question: Maybe in the United States they are not listening when He is speaking to them.

Pastor Vitale: They are pharisees and lifted up in pride. I believe very strongly that Jesus Christ will go the extra mile to help someone that is in darkness, to help someone that is in ignorance. When you are suppose to know better, when you have been in the Church for years, when you are suppose to be able to discern the Spirit of Christ, and when you come up against it, and you hate it, and you kill it, He just goes away. If it comes to you, and you reject it without praying about it, without putting it before the Lord, if it is a serious hatred in your heart, He just goes some place else because you are suppose to know better.

Question: It goes on to say we remain in Adam as long as we identify with Adam. Do you believe that?

Pastor Vitale: No. What he is saying is it is all in the mind. If I believe that I am Christ, then I am Christ. We do not have this power. It is Christ in us that is doing the work. When we throw ourselves in line with Him, it goes easier and it goes faster. Jesus said to Paul, do not push against the pricks. Paul pushed against the pricks, and Jesus did it anyway.

Question: Then it is not even a matter of identifying with Adam or not. Right?

Pastor Vitale: It is His work in us.

Question: It says here Adam is a disease. Death is the cure. He says Adam has to die.

When you are in Christ, you no longer identify with Adam. There he goes again.

Pastor Vitale: It is all a mind game with him.

Question: How does one tell if another is in Adam? They question whether you are in Christ, question whether anyone can be in such a spiritual place. The reason they question is that they cannot see you spiritually, but look on you outwardly.

Pastor Vitale: That is true. We can be partially in Christ. I am in a high place in Christ. Very few people could see me. Very few people see me for who I am, but I am not in full stature.

Question: The real ones in Christ should have no bone to chew. They have no desire to cause division or exaltation. I am hearing this should be so about the ones who are in Christ, but this seems like a general statement here.

Pastor Vitale: People can accomplish that within an adamic mind control. Someone with a strong mind and a religious spirit that wants to prove that they are in Christ, they can turn off anybody causing trouble or division. It is a religious spirit. This thing can be counterfeited to a certain point. You cannot do this out of your adamic soul. If you campaign, and make it a lifetime pursuit to not cause division or to live like you are a true Christian, and you succeed in doing it, by treating every human being perfectly, but it is done out of your adamic soul, you have wasted your time. Only what you do for Christ counts. The scripture says only what you do for Christ, but the true word is, only what you do when you are in Christ counts. They are just wrong, and it is going to cause a lot of people to miss this thing. Miss what? Miss the appearance of Christ. There is going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Question: The ones that do not believe in perfection here, that you die and go to heaven and get perfected there, they are serving Christ and doing things for Christ, which does not matter. The ones away on the other side, saying we are already in Christ, are adamic in their thinking that, but they are not there.

Pastor Vitale: The Lord showed me, about a year ago, that there is going to be a much greater percentage of people coming out of the category that believe in the rapture. There is going to be a much higher percentage of people moving into full stature than people in the ultimate reconciliation camp. At least, the people that believe in the rapture know they can sin. They are into repentance and submission. They are just blind. God has to take the blindness off their eyes, but these people in ultimate reconciliation are pharisees. They think they see. There is not going to be anything you could do for them. There is going to be a fair amount of people coming out of the sonship element of the kingdom church. They are going to have to get over this hell and damnation thing, but they are not yet into full stature. They just have to be enlightened, so there is going to be a lot of them coming up. These people in ultimate reconciliation are pharisees, and very few of them are going to enter in. They are going to have to admit that they were wrong. They are going to have to admit that they are not perfect, and they are going to have to wage war against their soul. Their soul is utterly ruling in them. At least, the people in the church that believe in the rapture, are trying to resist their inclinations to sin.

Question: Here he is saying the new heavens and the new earth already exist. When He came two thousand years ago Jesus opened the heavens and He will become the ladder, the door if you will, that we might ascend into the new heavens and the new earth in which no man has ever gone, except He who came from there. Since then, many have entered into that realm. Many have born the image of the Lord. Few have seen them. Fewer still, have accepted them. He is saying if you have not accepted them, you are just not seeing it. The fact remains that the saints life in Christ Jesus is here. The fruit of their existence is not found in works, but in character. He is saying these reveal the nine fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, etc.

Pastor Vitale: That is true. Whether or not a man is of God is revealed in his character, not in what he does. That is true.

Question: If that person has the fullness of love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, they are in the new heavens.

Pastor Vitale: No, because you can have them in measure. It is a very fine line. I believe there are a lot of people in whom Christ is being formed, but they are not in full stature.

Question: Union with God produces God in the flesh, so that God is visibly seen by the people who dwell in the adamic. The religious person will not accept the truth of union with God. Here he is saying that union with God is somebody that does not accept this truth. I think he is saying that we are in union with God. I am not sure. Is that what he is saying here? If we are not accepting that those that are in union with God, that we are in union with God now, is that we are religious because a religious person will not accept the truth of union with God. The religious person is found in all denominations and those that have come out of the system. The religious person has doctrine in place of lies and cannot tell the difference. The religious person has knowledge in place of relationship and does not know the difference. Now he is saying the person who does accept this, that we are still having problems with Adam and we are not in Christ.

Pastor Vitale: I think there is another realm that he is not seeing. What he is saying is true. People in whom Christ is not being formed, those just with the baptism of the Holy Spirit are not in Christ, and they cannot understand it, and they do not have life. You see, this doctrine that is coming forth here is being embraced by such a small group of people that they do not even address us. They do not even know that we exist.

Question: I saw that we were in it when he was saying that if you are not looking at Christ in that person, you are denying Christ, and you are looking at Adam. He is saying that this person is religious, is looking at Adam, looking at sin, looking at doctrine, looking at knowledge, instead of looking at Christ and relationship.

Pastor Vitale: I will say it again. There are people that are like that, and it is true, they do not have the life of Christ. They have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but they do not have the life of Christ. As far as we are concerned here, there are so few of us, and this doctrine probably was never heard by him when he wrote that book. He is not addressing the issue of those of us that do have the life of Christ, but do not believe that because you have the conception of the seed that you have the whole thing. God, through us, is bringing a new dimension into this doctrine that many of them have not heard yet.

Question: What he is saying is that this union with God is accepting the fact that we have entered into that realm.

Pastor Vitale: He does not comprehend that that could be true in part. Again, the natural example is if you are pregnant, you are not a mother and there is no baby in your arms, and there is no baby at your breast. They are denying that interim stage between conception and birth. That is what they are lacking there.

Question: He is saying the new earth and heavens is to come forth. That is all I got out of it. I do not have any other questions.

Pastor Vitale: Okay, let us pray for these people that are embracing this error. Father, in the name of Jesus, we pray for your glorification in us, Lord. We pray for your appearance in mankind, and specifically in your Church, Lord. We rebuke this false doctrine that will bring death unto your people. We call it a lie. We call it error. We speak against it and we cast it down out of the heavenlies in the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. We pray for mercy, Father, upon the preachers that are preaching it and upon the people that have believed it. We rebuke deception. We rebuke denial. We rebuke error, and we speak freedom and liberty to the captives, Lord . We pray, Father, for no will of our own or for no glorification of ourselves, but for the deliverance of our fellow human beings, Father. We pray that you prosper this word and that you bring it forth in accordance with your plan, Father, and that you bring forth the truth in the midst of the error, that you wage war against the error, and that you bring forth life and your own appearance in full stature despite every wickedness that is laying on top of you, Lord, that you do what you did in the man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, that you do it in the many sons that you promised to bring to glory, Lord, and that you help us and that you strengthen us to do whatever we have to do, which is our part in this, Father. Be glorified, we pray. Bring forth this word, bring forth this spiritual experience. Show them, Lord, that it must be a reality because surely when these men come face to face with the true son in full stature, they will know that they have been in error. Bring it to pass, Lord. We are waiting for you, Father, anxiously in expectation. Father, we hope it is not too much longer, Lord, that we should see your appearance and glory in your Spirit, Father. We thank you for the privilege that you have given us of being a part of this great work, in the name of Jesus. Amen.

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