155 - 1 Part

The Following Message Has Been Transcribed and Edited For

Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By

The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.



PASTOR VITALE: This has to be, it just has to be. Jesus said it was going to be.


COMMENT: I do not know if I am handling it right. It seams like strife.


PASTOR VITALE: I do not think that you are handling it right. I told you this before, and I will tell you again. Do not let anyone ever condemn you, number one. You come from a position, it is my understanding, and if I am correct, that he has really just kept you down to such a degree, for most of your life that it can be called abuse. You have come out from accepting that, and you have over corrected. I believe... you see all I have to go by is what you tell me.


I believe that you have over corrected. No, you are not handling it ideally. As I look at the whole picture, I see it as a very good sign that you have risen up against the oppressor. I know you are not going to misunderstand me. I do not want anyone misunderstanding me. It is the enemy in your husband, who is a very nice guy. Right now, he is in an oppressor role. Does anyone not know what I am talking about? I am not knocking your husband.


Maybe he does have a relationship with Jesus, it is an immature relationship, and he does not understand any of this stuff. Because he does not understand, he has yielded to a manifestation of Satan, and he is allowing himself to be used to persecute you as Christ comes forth in you. It is very, very hard to deal with somebody in authority and not be oppressed. Assert yourself in a Godly manner. It is very, very hard; you have taken the very first step. You have realized that it is not a Godly thing to be crushed continuously.


There is a curse in the Scripture that says, "You shall be crushed as the moth all day long." You found out that God does not want you to do that. You responded to the word of the Lord, you have gone a little the other way, and He is going to bring you back. You are going to keep trying, and maybe you will keep failing for a while. He is going to build His life in you to a degree that you can stand against the oppressor in your life. You will stand against him in righteousness.


I never had that with my husband. I did have it, believe it or not, with my child. It was amazing. A lot of people could not comprehend it, and it is very painful for me to talk about her. I will talk about her because I think you need to hear it. No matter what her age was, that is how Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, was using her. She had a very strong personality. It was a terrible thing for me.


Then I had it with a series of tyrannical employers that I went through, where I lost so many jobs. I was terrified of losing my job, maybe as any woman would be terrified of their husband short of him hitting her. I was not afraid that anyone was going to hit me, I was terrified of these men. I was a widow; I had a child to support. I went through twenty-seven jobs in five years. It was incredible the way I got fired. The people that heard the stories could not believe what happened to me, or they could not believe I was fired for that reason.


I had it in the last permanent job I had; the man was such a tyrant. He was not emotionally well. He was such a tyrant that he is still frequently in my dreams typifying the carnal mind and Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, in my dreams. He was such an unreasonable tyrant. All that I can say is that it is a trial in your life, and that God is going to give you the victory. It is going to be much more than a victory with your husband. There is much more at stake here than you straightening this out with your husband. That is a hard word. That is going to be misunderstood. I do not think anyone here will misunderstand. It will be misunderstood maybe by your husband.


It will be misunderstood by some carnal people. There is more at stake here than your marriage, not that your marriage is not important. God wants your marriage to be blessed. As soon as Christ comes on the scene in anybody's life, He becomes the most important thing. That is what He meant when He said, "He that does not hate his mother or father..." ...however the Scripture goes... "cannot follow me." Something like that, I am not quoting it right.


That is what He meant, not that we are to hate the members of our families. When Christ calls us, He must become the most important thing in our life. Of course, your marriage is on the line. More important than that is your relationship with Christ. In this hour, I believe that you are called to full stature.


I am sorry for anyone that their heart is hurting them when they hear this. It is the truth, the things of God are more important than this world. That is the reality of His spiritual life, whether man is raging against, when I say man I mean humanity. Whether humanity is raging against it or not, He is the truth. That is the truth. We could be in rebellion against it or we can submit to it. I want to tell you, I hope I am not going off, whenever it sounds like I am going off, I am trying to relate it to your problem.


For whatever it is worth to you, I never had this problem with a husband so I have to tell you the problems that I had. When I was going through this with my daughter, who was dead set against my relationship with the Lord, she was jealous of it, she was threatened by it, hated it. There were so many people in my life at that time giving me counsel that was the opposite of the Lord. They were telling me that she has to be the most important thing in my life, and I should not do that.


She was basically a healthy child at that time. She would get a cold. I would see that she was comfortable, see that she was okay. I would go to church. I was just a quarter of a mile away from the church. I would leave her the number to the church. She was twelve, thirteen years old and I would go. I was criticized for it.


I was come against even by the people in the church because I took a stand. You see, I was concerned for her life as much as mine, that she had to go to church until she was eighteen. When she was in my house, she had to go every time that I went. I was in church four nights a week. I said, "What better do you have to do? You are going to sit and watch television, no you are coming to church with me."


I was criticized by the people in the church. Just recently, at the convention in Connecticut, someone told me you could not force a child to go to church. I said "Oh, you can force them to go to school, you can force them to go to the doctor, you can force them to go to the dentist, you can force them to take a bath. You cannot force them to go to church, what are you talking about?" The man was a pastor.


There is such a spirit of rebellion over this nation, that what I am trying to tell you is that it is a horrendous trial. God is going to see you through. I know what made it really tolerable for me was the knowledge that it was a trial. I remember that I was going through another, I have been through so many trials, it was another aspect of my horrendous life that went on for a few years. It was not this, I do not remember what it was.


A believer called me up, someone who is used of God in a conversation. She said to me "It is a trial, it is a trial." When she hung up the phone, it was like life had been imparted to me, because I really did not think it was a trial. I thought it was forever. As soon as the thought that it was a trial internalized in me, I knew it would come to an end. It gave me the strength that I needed to go through.


What am I saying to you? You are called to full stature. I believe that everyone that comes here is called to full stature. I cannot make you any promises, that is between you and God. I am not saying that you are not going to make it. I am saying that I cannot bring you to full stature. Jesus has to bring you to full stature. Do you understand what I am saying?


Everyone that comes here is called to this glory. I believe that you are called to full stature. If you are called to full stature, you must have an anti-Christ in your life. It is part of the training.


I have been going through these trials for so many years. I am at a place now, I am removed enough from it, you can see the forest from through the trees. I am removed enough now that I can look at the individual members of the body of Christ. I can see such a likeness to what they are all going through that can be related to saying, "Well, it is the terrible twos." Two-year-olds do this, three-year-olds do that, teenagers do that.


I am at the place now, I have been through so much, and I am so far removed from it, I have entered somewhat into the realm of the spirit. I can look at what you are going through, I can look at what all of you are going through and I can say, "This is what youngsters in Christ go through when they are called to full stature." If you have a child that is having screaming, yelling tantrums, rolling on the floor kicking their feet, well you know that you have to deal with it at the moment. You know that they are not going to be two forever, that they are going to grow up.


I am telling you that this is something that just has to be. If it were not you it would be somebody else. I think if you are a married woman, it usually is your husband. It has to be someone with authority over you. That is the way it goes, that is the trial, someone that has authority over you, that is oppressing you. The Lord is building in you an ability to deal with it in righteousness. That is exactly what He is doing.


COMMENT: Inaudible.


PASTOR VITALE: Well no, no repeat after me. No, I reject that. Repeat after me. "I am doing a lot better than a year ago. I used to be a floor mat, and now I am asserting myself, and tomorrow I will assert myself in a Godly manner." Amen


COMMENT: "I am doing a lot better than a year ago. I used to be a floor mat, and now I am asserting myself, and tomorrow I will assert myself in a Godly manner." Amen


PASTOR VITALE: Yes, exactly that is very true. Of course, the ultimate, well I had two ultimate of my tyrannical bosses. The man I just spoke about and, of course, I worked for my pastor for a year. He was the worst out of them all. He was the absolute worst out of all of them. This was a triple shock to my system. I mean this was my pastor, a man of God, and the worst employer I ever had. I did not have it with my husband, believe me I had it. It was so bad with him, and he was not even paying me very much. You do not expect it. I do not want you to miss my point. You do not expect to get paid very much for a church.


My point was my carnal mind. This was a manifestation of pride, my carnal mind said "Look at this garbage he is paying me, I do not have to take this." I went out, I said "I could do so much better, I could go get a job." I made it all the way to Melville, I came back, and I could not hear from the Lord in three weeks. It was the worst time in my entire walk with the Lord. He told me that my rebellion cut me off from Him


It was horrible. The Lord told me to work for him. You see, this whole country, there is a lie in this country, that money rules, or that we make our own way. It has nothing to do with it, when you are in Christ it has nothing to do with money. You do what you are told. It has nothing to do with money. You do what you are told. Very few people understand that.


The Lord said something every interesting to me the other day because, as you know my position, all of my needs are met and that I really do not have any money. He said to me, "You know what you can be likened to? You could be likened to a wife, who does not work and is staying home raising her children."


Most families in those days do not have a lot of money. "You have chosen to stay home with your children." He said "All these women today, a large majority of women in the United States today, are choosing not to do that. They are choosing to go to work, and the children are being sacrificed unto Baal." He said, "Do not feel bad, you are in a very healthy place." That is what He said to me. I thank God for it.


What did He say to me? All of these women working it is a confirmation to me that it is rebellion. You do not need... God says that you do not need all of these material possessions that are in this world today. He just popped something in my mind that I never really even thought about. I do not know whether you are aware of it or not. It has been on the news. The kids today do not want to work. Kids used to be out working at twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old. They would be out shining shoes, a paper route, they would be collecting bottles for the deposit. Kids do not want to work today; they drive around in Corvettes.


Why? Because their mother is working. It is a perversion. I am sorry, it is a perversion. If you have children you should be home with your children. Yes, it is an absolute perversion, the wrong person is working. The whole society is spiritually perverse, and it is getting worse every year.


The reason why we are perverse is that we have come out from under the laws of God. We have some out from under God's order. We have come out from under God's order. I just want to leave you with this. I want to say it one more time. You are doing fine, and do not let anyone condemn you, especially your own mind. I do not think anyone here would condemn you. If you feel condemnation come upon you, you just say, "Father, I think I blew it, I was not in a Godly spirit. I am sorry, please help me to do it in Christ. Be the glorified man in me and in this marriage."


This is the training ground for you. If it was not him, it would be someone else. It has to be. It is more than getting the junk out. It is true, He is getting the junk out, He is also building Himself in you. He is literally building Himself in you. It is a combination. He throws out the junk. Do not make the mistake we made with Old Order deliverance. There is much more involved here than casting the demons out.


The impartation of His life is much more important than getting the junk out. Let us be careful to give God the glory, because this is a manifestation of the carnal mind. The lie behind it is that if we keep casting out, we are going to be OK. No, we will never be OK without Jesus. Because without Jesus we are just a lump of garbage. That is all we are. We are made out of garbage.


We are garbage, He is everything. Without Him we are nothing. Do you know sterile soil will not produce any life? If you are a gardener, you know sterile soil will not produce life. You have to put garbage into the earth to make the plant grow. If we keep casting out and keep casting out, we may have sterile soil, and we will still be dead. Are you OK? Is there anything else you want to say? You want to get anything else out?


COMMENT: I guess it was just that I had to have the last word.


PASTOR VITALE: Praise God, if you can say it, praise God. What is it that you feel you need deliverance from here? What is it that you have to overcome?


COMMENT: I was trying to be the winner. Trying to prove a point.


PASTOR VITALE: What is that?


COMMENT: My liberty and my rights.


PASTOR VITALE: What do you need deliverance from?


COMMENT: I do not know


PASTOR VITALE: That is a combination of pride and rebellion. First your pride rises up, "How dare you do that to me." Then the rebellion rises up and says, "Yes." That is what it is, pride and rebellion. He is going to crush it. Thank you Lord for persecuting XXXX so that she can become a Son of God. Somebody has got to do the dirty work. It is much easier to take if you cannot think of it from that high place. If it was not him, it would be someone else. It just has to be.


It could be worse, he is not punching you out. Glory to God. Along those lines, you have every reason to believe that he is not going to straighten out anytime in the near future. As a matter of fact, he is not going to straighten out one second before you take the victory in this area. Again, do not let that condemn you or put any ungodly pressure on you.


The truth is going to set you free. It just takes time. I believe, in situations like this, we can go faster or slower. Let me remind you, if anyone is inclined to...I think you told me you pray this. If anyone is inclined to pray the prayer, "Lord do it as fast as you can." Pray the prayer with knowledge. The faster you go, the hotter the trial, the hotter the fire and the hotter the trial.


I believe if you open your heart to God your prayer is going to be, "Let me go as fast as it could go with out killing me."


COMMENT: They say He will never give us more than we can handle.




COMMENT: One of the things I was reading today is that He only chastens those that He loves, and they are going to be Sons, so be encouraged. Today I got in Samuel 1, obedience is better than sacrifice.


PASTOR VITALE: Hallelujah. Glory to God. I would like to make a few comments on what we have been talking about. The death of manhood in this nation. I turned on one of the talk shows for about ten minutes today. They had a couple of men up there. I want to tell you looking at it with my spiritual eyes, they were pitiful. It is pitiful what is happening to our men in this country. One very sensitive man was saying when the National Organization of Women was first formed, he was all for women's rights. He was on their board. He has to say at this point, these are my words, not his words.


That something has gone very wrong with the movement. That men's manhood is being destroyed, that he perceives amongst the woman a rage, that is not present amongst the men. It is a rage. One woman even stood up in the audience, and she was so angry against men.


Anyway as he was talking, all I could think about was the goat that ran against the ram in the fury of his...what is the Scripture? In the fury of his wrath or something like that. All I could think about was the goat coming against the ram. Brethren, I will say it one more time. Human marriage is a manifestation of the curse. It is something that we find in fallen humanity. In ascended humanity, there is no more marriage. You are going to be like the angels.


There is no taking in marriage. It is a manifestation of the curse. When it is functioning in accordance with God, when marriage is functioning in accordance with God's plan, it usually is much harder on the woman than it is on the man. Once again, women are not weak, they are not supposed to be weak. The Bible calls them the weaker vessel.


If you study that out, what it is talking about is the one that has the lesser authority. The Captain is the weaker vessel to the General. This does not mean you are weak physically. Most women are physically weaker than most men. That is a physical sign of what God has done.


A lot of women if they workout, they go body-building, they might have the potential to be stronger in their body and in their mind. They have the potential to be spiritual men, we found out. The creation is fallen. God has said for the optimum benefits and for the optimum peaceful, righteous life in a fallen creation, this is the plan that you will follow. The man will be in charge, and the woman, who is not to be weak, will submit to him. Their children will grow up to be healthy.


I have to confess, it is hard on a woman. The more intelligent the woman, the harder it is on her to submit to a man, who might not be as intelligent as she is. It is very common to see women that are more intelligent than their husband. That does not give you the authority to destroy their manhood or to destroy the authority God has given them.


The same thing is true in a church. Maybe you are smarter than I am. Maybe you know more than I do. I do not know, that does not give you the authority to take me down. God put me here. That is all that matters. Did God put that person there? If God put that person there, no matter what fault you can fin in them, you have no authority to take them down.


That is God's servant, and who would know the mind of God? Why, He put me here. That is the condition of the marriage today. It is a manifestation of the curse. It is very hard on women. The answer is not to rise up and materialize as a goat. When you do that you are going to destroy the manhood of the ram. It is happening, I see it happening in this nation.


It just amazes me, the Scripture coming to life in the United States of America. The women are enraged against the men. When I talk, I generalize. I was around in the fifties. I was an adult in the fifties. Of course, I could not speak for every woman before the sexual revolution. I do not recall men being in a rage against women. Of course, I was young in the fifties, I do not remember men being in a rage against women. They just did their thing.


They would look at women as sex objects. They were not in a rage against them. Now the women are in rage against the men. It is an unconscious thing. It is a spiritual force flowing through the country. I want to tell you if God does not interfere, they are not going to be satisfied until they utterly destroy the men in the nation.


COMMENT: It is like a retaliation. If they suffer or others suffered, they are paying back for what the women suffered in the sixties?


PASTOR VITALE: That is not what I am saying. I do not think it is that. It is a spiritual thing. It is a playing out of Daniel Eight, where the lesser authority rose up and hated the higher authority. It is a spiritual thing. It is the very truth of the Scripture coming to pass in this nation. That is what it is.


COMMENT: Would you say it is a rebellion of women for their rights to be equal as men?


PASTOR VITALE: Yes, it is a rebellion, not a rebellion against men. It is a rebellion against God because He said, "You are the weaker vessel." It is rebellion against God, having come out from under God. The women would benefit from hearing teachings like this. You are just as good as any man, maybe you are even better. God gave them the authority. If you come out from under it, you are going to destroy the whole nation including your own children.


COMMENT: They are in a rage against God.


PASTOR VITALE: I believe they are in a rage against God. It starts out...well, the whole thing is a rebellion and a rage against God. Women seam to have, the ones I hear speaking anyway, seem to have it in their head that they believe they have the ability to change men and make them what they want.


They wanted a more gentler man, they wanted a man who could understand them when they talked to them. Women's grievances are not hard to understand. I am a woman. I was married. It is very easy for me to comprehend the feelings and frustrations of a woman.


This is how God has shown it to me, that it is very hard to rule. I want to tell you if you were to have told me how hard it is to rule, and we are a small group here, if you would have told me how hard it is to rule, I would not have believed it until I experienced it. I cannot even comprehend the pressure that is on the President of the United States. I think about all this. I cannot comprehended it.


We have traditions. The human race has traditions that they really do not know why they are doing it. They just know that when they do it, society works. How do you know how to raise children? Well you grew up and you saw your mother with children. One of the reasons we have a lot of women today that are not very motherly is because the families are getting smaller. Years ago when there are five or ten children, the older girls saw their mother with a baby. The younger girls saw their married sisters with babies. They learned how to raise children and how to keep a family.


Today we have women who are really...I am not insulting anyone, natural women do not know how to love their children. They do not know how to love a husband. I am not talking to anyone here. They do not know how to be a wife and a mother, because they never experienced it. They were never taught.


What women do not understand. I am having a lot of trouble getting this out. What I am trying to say, it is very hard to understand, and it is not very obvious to us how hard it is, because over the centuries we have seen manly men, and we do not understand that they have to fight to stay that way. Just to give you an example because I am having trouble getting this point out.


Years ago, it was very common for women and children to stay in the home and men to socialize outside of the home. It was very acceptable to go out to "men only bars." The women would know, know they were not looking for men. They would seek the company of men, they would go to "men only bars."


I know if you went out to the café, to the sidewalk café...I know in Greece when I was there, only men sitting there at the tables. Men playing checkers. Men playing chess. Men playing cards. Men playing boccie. Men, men, men. Their wives were at home.


When women's liberation started women rebelled against it, they said we want you home. They do not understand that men need the company of men to be manly. That it is a totally different relationship that a man has with another man than he does with his wife. The average women, and I am not talking about all the spiritual men out there today. I am talking about the average traditional women, nobody understand this, you just do what you saw when you grew up.


They really almost continuously want from their husband. They want attention. They want emotions. They want, they want, they want. This is the traditional woman. It is not only because of their nature, it is because of the position she is in, that she is the weaker vessel. She feels the need to be loved. She needs to feel reassured, because she is dependent. She is home with the children. He has got the job, he has got the money, he is out there, he has got the access to the other women. He has the power. Women feel vulnerable.


Women are always pulling on the man, "give me, show me, do for me." It is just the way things are, unless you are a spiritual man, you have moved into a male role. Does anybody not know what I am talking about?


Men, when they are subjected to this continuously are in great danger of making concessions that they should not make. I am going to tell you deep spiritual truth ladies. It is very "in" today for a man not to fellowship with the boys, that his wife should be his everything. I want to tell you that is very dangerous for a man. Why? I will tell you why. When his wife becomes his everything, he becomes dependant upon her enough to start making concessions. He will make concessions that a man should not make. This is the spiritual fulfillment of Delilah cutting off Samson's hair. I am giving you a hard word. I am telling you the spiritual truth. I am telling you the truth.


It is our fallen condition. It is the condition of our fallen nature. It is true that it is very hard to be a man. It is nice to be affectionate and warm to your wife. A lot of women, I am talking about traditional women now. I am not talking about all you lawyers, doctors, and business women out there that have become spiritual men. I am talking about the traditional dependant women at home with the kids who does not work which is the way God set it up. She feels insecure so she keeps pulling on him, and pulling on him. As much as he loves her, he will make as much as a concession as he can. Again, the typical woman in this position does not understand what it is like to be a man.


She does not know when to stop. He must know when to stop. He must know when to say "no." The less male support he has, the more dependant he is on his wife and the more likely he is to say "yes" when he should say "no." Why? Because she is his everything. Can you hear what I am saying?


We have to work, men have to work at being a man. This is a truth that you do not hear in this world today. You do not hear it in this country today. What has been going on since the 1950's is that women are saying you cannot have your "men only bars." You cannot have your men's clubs anymore. You have got to let us in. You have got to let us in.


I want to tell you that men can lose their manhood when they brush shoulders with women too much. Sociologists that do studies on all kinds of people would study what they call Patriarchal Societies where men are very masculine, and they will shadow box with one another. They will hit each other on the back, they will even tell each other dirty jokes. Now I am a minister, I am not one for telling dirty jokes. Listen to what I am saying, I am talking about heathen men. Even the telling of dirty jokes, it is all designed to strengthen their manhood, to make them feel like men so they can go and be a man.


Women in their ignorance have gone to men, not understanding how hard it is to be a man and to maintain their manhood. They have gone in this last forty or fifty years, and they have stripped men of many of their devices that strengthen their manhood. They were thinking in the darkness of their unregenerate minds. Now remember, we all have unregenerate minds until Christ comes. God said, "If you have an unregenerate mind, that is fine, this is what you do."


Well, in the darkness of their unregenerate minds they stopped doing what God said to do, not realizing when they took all these things from these men that they were going to make women out of them. Now we have a plague in this country. We have an element of society in male bodies, and they can still have sexual intercourse, make babies, they are spiritual women.


The women are in a double rage. They are not only in a rage because they are women and that God gave the men the authority, they are in a rage that these men are not being men to them. Many of them do not work. Many work, but they will not take their responsibility in the house. They will not take their responsibility with the children. They are women.


No backbone, no guts. One of these days one of these tapes will get out, and there will be people crucifying me. I am telling you the truth. Traditional women, that is what they have become, traditional women. There is no man in the family. Sometimes the woman becomes the man. I want to tell you it does not work. You can be a spiritual man in Christ. I am a spiritual man, I am not making any man a spiritual woman. Do you know what I am talking about?


If you want to be a spiritual man, you have to give up life under the curse. If you want marriage, or if you are already married when this knowledge comes to your ears, no matter how far God brings you in Christ, so long as you are living with that man...I am not telling anyone to get divorced, God hates divorce, as long as you are living with that man in your human relationship with him, God requires you not to tear down his manhood.


Do not be condemned, it could never do you or your family any good to tear down his manhood in anyway. That does not mean you yield to ungodliness. God has to tell you how to walk that fine line. Build up your husbands. When you tear them down, you tear down yourself and your family. The society is in great trouble.


I was telling you about these two men on the TV. The one man was very intelligent, he was desperate, he was saying how it is almost impossible to be a man, that the women are calling all the shots. He did not use the word, what he was saying was "They are controlling us." If you take a woman out and you come on too fast, of course, he is talking about fornication. We do not do that in the church. If you come on too fast, they are yelling "date rape." If you do not come on fast enough to her, you are a wimp. What do they want? Of course, these are two heathen men. What was the answer of the two heathen men in regard to human sexuality between unmarried people? Women should be the aggressor, because the men are going to jail for date rape.


I am not for rape, you cannot go around raping women. I believe the men are not the only ones responsible here. That was the answer, that the women now should be the sexual aggressor, so the men are not in danger for going to jail for date rape. We have come out from under God's law, and it is not working, brethren.


COMMENT: I was just thinking men have to protect themselves.


PASTOR VITALE: What are you referring to?


COMMENT: They are being charged with date rape in the real time.


PASTOR VITALE: It is not natural. You know, there are societies...it is my understanding that they are the minority as far as the societies go. There is such a thing as the Matriarchal Society where women rule, where the spiritual male is in the female body and the spiritual female is in the male body. They are called Matriarchal Societies.


There have even been cases where primitive societies where men have nursed babies. Men nursed babies in which they produced milk. Well, in that which produces milk in a woman's breasts, contrary to popular belief, is not that you have had a baby. Hormones are a part of it. There are two ways to stimulate the hormones. If you have had a baby, your hormones are flowing, and there is milk in your breasts. If you have not had a baby, and you put a baby at your breast, the baby begins to suck. Eventually you will have milk. It is really supply and demand. That suckling is stimulating the hormones that produce milk.


One society where the men stayed home with the babies, he put the baby to the breast to calm it, not expecting any milk to come out. He did this instead of a pacifier and he produced milk.


COMMENT: Oh probably, he has the make up to produce the milk.


PASTOR VITALE: He does. That is the whole point, he does. We are basically the same. It is just the difference of hormones, a balance of hormones. That is what is quite amazing. In utero for the first...I do not know what point the sex is developed. At the very beginning the fetus in utero is neuter. It could go either way, depending on how the hormones flow.


The body develops in accordance with the balance of hormones. We start out with the basic body. That is what we are up against. I cannot wait to see what the result of this is going to be. I know God is with this nation. I think I mentioned this to you before. It just amazes me how the Lord managed to get a president and vice president that are so for traditional family values in spite of all the rage in the country.


I find that an incredible miracle. I thank God for it, that they are an example to the nation. There is a big push in Washington right now on President Bush to give more money for schools. President Bush keeps saying it is not in the federal funding, you have to sit down with your kids. You have to spend time with them. You have to teach them to read.


Women want to go to work. Of course, the men want to go to work. They are putting the burden of raising the children on the government. It is not going to work. I do not know what is going to happen. It has already failed, and we are headed for a big crash. As I was coming over here, the Lord said something to me. I will share it with you. You may have heard a lot of women are for day-care centers. They will tell you, in Israel it worked on the kibbutz, on the farms in Israel. The children went into a nursery, and they grew up very healthy.


There are studies done on it, and that is what they use to support day-care centers. As I was driving over here, the Lord said to me, "That is a lie." He said.... well let me tell you about kibbutz. They way it worked, and they still have kibbutzim in Israel, it is a collective farm. Everybody lives on the farm, each family has a very small area of their own. I think it is one room or two each.


They eat in a collective kitchen. Everybody has a job. Everybody works. The people that are assigned to the cooking, cook for the entire camp, serve those working in the field during the day if it is a vegetable farm. When I was in Israel, I saw a chicken farm. I saw some of the people working in the chicken factory. Everybody works. The children every morning go into this day-care area, and they grow up pretty well adjusted.


The Lord said to me tonight, "It is not the same thing as what is going on in the city." What is going on in the kibbutz is every child knows that they are a part of a large extended family. Those kids are in the day-care knew everyone's parents are in the field working. They are not being packed in a car and driven some distance to a foreign place with kids that they will never see if the parents take them out of the day-care. They are a part of this extended family that they grow up with them. They spend their whole life with them.


The whole farm is their home. It works. What is happening in this nation today is that family structures are being torn down. People are just joined, they do not belong to anything. They go to a day-care because their parents pay for it. People in the day-care, the other children mean nothing to them. The teachers mean nothing to them. It is a job. If their parents pull them out, they never see them again. It is not working. It is a totally different situation, and it is not working. Glory to God.


We have an epidemic. Men are dying left and right to their manhood. A woman, a traditional woman can ascend to spiritual manhood without killing anyone. It can happen. You just educate her. That is what is happening in this country. It started with World War II. They put the woman in the factories when there was a shortage of manhood. They found out women could really do all these things because there was a big lie circulating that women were incompetent. They could not understand why women were in the home. They could not understand what we are talking about here. Their carnal minds decided women were incompetent.


In all fairness to women, I know there are going to be people who are going to misunderstand me. Let me just put this on the tape. In all fairness to women, they have really had a raw deal. They have not been appreciated for what they do in the home. Their contribution, their raising of the children, their shopping and cooking of the food, even the cleaning of the house, you have to have a clean house, and it has not been appreciated. Men have been arrogant. They have been proud. We are a fallen creation. In their anxiety to maintain their manhood, one of the things they have done, and again I am generalizing, is to "put down" women. Well, that is not right, I am not excusing it, we are all fallen people. Women have really had a raw deal which has added to their rage.


It has added to the problem. Women do not have to kill anybody to become a man. All you have to do is give them the opportunity to learn something and they can do it. They can do just about anything a man can do. Pt them in an institution of high learning, educate them. They will probably out-show the men in large proportions.


For a man to become a spiritual woman he has to die.


COMMENT: Inaudible.


PASTOR VITALE: I said a woman could ascend without killing herself. Of course, she dies to her womanhood. It really is a better thing. Women who have ascended to manhood do not want to go back. It is highly preferable to be a man in this world. The men have to die to themselves to descend. Now let me clarify that. It is also a wonderful thing to be a woman. You are much more vulnerable when you are a woman if you get a man that is not a good man. You can spend twenty, thirty, or forty years in torment. It is a beautiful thing to be a woman and stay home to run your family household and raise you children. You are in a very vulnerable position.


You get a wrong guy, and you have one problem for many, many years. That was what I meant by it, that from that point of view, women have more control over their life when they are a man. That is what you hear if you listen to them, that is what they are saying. "We want control over our lives. We want control over our sex lives. We want control, we want control, we want control." Anybody else before we go on?


COMMENT: I was just thinking of Proverbs it says... (inaudible).


PASTOR VITALE: There is nothing wrong with a woman working. That is a good point. Let me clarify that. There is nothing wrong with a woman working. This is where the line is. Is the family the most important thing to her? Is she working on the side, or is her job the most important thing to her? Her family is on the side. There is nothing wrong with a woman working.


It is a question of what is number one in your life, and the role that the Lord has assigned to the woman is to make her husband and her family number one in he life. Kids cannot grow up with good self-esteem unless they know they are the most important thing in someone's life other than their father. They need to know that. They need to have a family life that they are a part of or they grow up all messed up, as our kids are growing up today, all messed up.


God said, "The woman is the one that has to make the sacrifice and give up her career so the family could be healthy." God said that you could work, definitely you can work. There is nothing wrong with that. Personally, I do not know how a woman can work full-time and raise a family. You could work part-time. You could have hobbies. You could do all kinds of things, but it has to be filled in around your family. Unless, of course, God has called you, then He becomes the most important thing in your life.


I have said here many times before that I personally do not believe God will call a young mother into a position of Christ where she would have to give them up to serve God. I do not think it is likely. He can do anything He wants, but it is not likely. Why? Because someone has to care for those children. If your children are grown, it is a different story. Your husband is an adult, and as God brings it forth you should have time for the Lord.


COMMENT: Inaudible.


PASTOR VITALE: Yes it is very true. Children are very wise. Whether it enters into their conscious or their unconscious mind, they know how the father treats the mother. It affects how they grow up. If the father does not respect the mother and does not hold her up and demand that the children respect her, the children will not respect her. If the children do not respect her, they are cursed because they would not respect their mother.


The father has a great responsibility, and we see men everywhere in this country, they just do not...you have to be taught to be a woman. Nobody used to know that. They thought you were just born as a man. No, you have to be trained to be a woman. We have a nation of men that do not know how to be men, and women that do not know how to be women.


I saw a TV show a couple of years ago where they were having some kind of family dinner. The daughter had come home, she was a lawyer or some sophisticated business woman. I think she was a lawyer, living out of the house. She came home for a family dinner, and they were in the kitchen. Her mother asked her to help her with the cooking. She could not do something really simple. I will say boiling water. It was not that, it was something really simple.


She was saying, "Ma, I do not know how to do it." Then all of a sudden someone came in, and they were having some sort of legal problem. She says, "Oh, I will help you with that. We have to call this court and that court. Just call me at the office tomorrow morning."


You have to be taught to be a woman. You have to be taught to be a man. Our children are being taught intellectual teaching. They are being taught academics. They are not being taught any of the social graces or manners. They are not being taught their roles in life. It is quite a disaster. God help our nation.


COMMENT: I was just thinking when my children were small, my husband would say to them, "That is my wife, do not talk to her that way." Now, I see my sons and daughters with my grandchildren. Now if they have done anything, they say, "Do not talk to her that way, that is my mother." They do it so naturally they do not even think about it.


PASTOR VITALE: Yes, they do not even know it is happening.


COMMENT: It is all unconscious.


PASTOR VITALE: It is all unconscious. All of this teaching, I am sure you heard the saying, "Do as I say, not as I do." Children do what their parents do. We teach them by simply living with them, and they watch us and observe us. They do everything that we do.


COMMENT: Today families are so broken down, there is not one to teach the young people. They have no father and, in some cases, the father had died when they were very young. What is the answer to something like that? Our society is really falling apart as far as the institution of marriage and family life.


PASTOR VITALE: Well, in the past, the answer was an uncle or the grandfather. In view of the situation of the nation today we are in an epidemic here. Our only hope is Christ. We have a lot of women in this ministry, and God brings some young women in. I believe I am a role model to these young women. Of course, they do not see me relating to a man. They hear a lot of wisdom.


I believe I am a good role model to them with regards to how to treat other people, in regard to manners and social graces. I give a lot of counsel along these areas. I know there is a lot of hope for women who have grown up in broken homes. I would have to believe that God has male pastors somewhere that are good role models for young men who come out of broken homes.


The only answer is Christ at this point. Of course, you know we still have people in this nation that are decent role models. God can do anything, and that is why I am against being in a religious bondage about who God might join somebody to. For example, let me explain what I mean by that. There are a lot of Christians that if they see a Christian that is joined to a non-Christian, they will say that it cannot be of God. I do not agree with this at all.


God knows what we need most of all. If we need a particular life skill, and there is nobody in the church in our area at this time to give it to us, God is very capable of joining us to an unregenerate man for a season to get that experience or to have that relationship. Be very careful not to get caught in a religious bondage in this hour. Every good thing is not in the church. We have a lot of good things. Every good thing is not in the church.


If God joins you or somebody that you know to a person that is not in the church, and they are basically a decent person (I am not talking about a prostitute), they are basically a decent person, living a decent moral life, you see someone and God has joined a Christian to them for a season to learn a particular grace or a particular thing.


I believe that there are families that are not Christian that have good family structure where there is respect, and there is honor of one another. If you see God joining someone to someone that is unregenerate, do not just jump all over them and tell them it cannot be God. It could be God. Be very careful when you are dealing with a troubled person that God has taken under their wing. Be very careful not to hinder His work in their life. If you think it is not God, you pray about it. You say, "Father if it is not you. I declare them to you as an orphan and help them."


Do not jump in thinking you are better because we do not know best, none of us know best, we are fallen, unless you have been in that very same exact position and God has delivered you out of it. If you have not been in that same exact position and you were victorious in it, you are not even qualified to have an opinion. If you have been in that same exact position and been victorious, then you are entitled to an opinion. Then be very careful because that may be a different case.


How do you know what they need? Watch that counseling. Watch it, because their blood is on your hands, brethren. This is very serious. Watch that counseling. Watch how you interpret that dream. Watch it. You are fallen, you do not have the mind of Christ. Take it slow. You do not want to hurt anybody.


I know you do not want to hurt anybody. It is ignorance, it is spiritual ignorance. I am not insulting you. Do not do it. You can pray for them. Pray for God's wisdom, hold your peace. Unless you really have prayed, and you really know it is a word from the Lord hold your peace. You are killing people. Hallelujah.








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Pastor Vitale's Bio

Sheila R. Vitale is the founding teacher and pastor of Living Epistles Ministries and Christ-Centered Kabbalah. In that capacity, she expounds upon the Torah (Scripture) and teaches Scripture through a unique Judeo-Christian lens.

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