THE CARNAL MIND
(A Pharisitical Response To Tribulation)
We are beyond spirit. If you do not understand that, listen to the message, A Mature Look At Deliverance Ministry. This whole context of old order deliverance can be likened to a child learning to read, or someone learning to type on the typewriter. When you get passed your basics you will find out that all of these spirits are a part of the whole. What we are up against is a mind. Its name is the carnal mind and its god is Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. When you are a baby Christian and you cannot handle Goliath, God lets you deal with the lion and the bear. These spirits are only fragments of a superior mind. We are involved in Armageddon, and it is the battle of Christ against the carnal mind.
The carnal mind is the mind of this creation, it is a corporate mind. No man is an individual. There is a corporate mind in all of humanity. It is called the carnal mind and Christ is invading it and trying to become the mind of all of the people. It is a battle, I do not know what you mean that it is a process. There is not just one spirit. It is possible that if you are new in Christ, or even if you are not new in Christ, it is always possible that it could be a spirit. In my case it is not a spirit. As you mature in Christ, hopefully after twelve or fifteen years, you really should not have any spirits anymore. You really should not. I would not condemn anybody that does, but if you have really been moving on in God, you should not be having any spirits in you. It is possible, you know, you could have one, but you are up to the.... I am dealing with the root of the tree right now. If you have spirits, fine, do not say you do not have them. If you have them, get them out. Maybe you are in the church for twenty years. It does not matter that you have been there for twenty years if you have not been taught properly or if it was not your time. If you did not get rid of the demons, and you still have them, you have to get rid of them. In my case, I really have not had a spirit in a very long time. I am not saying it is not possible, anything is possible. Basically, I am up against....I am nose to nose with Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, himself. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, in me. It is not out there, it is going on inside of me.
COMMENT: How do you abide with the Christ in you?
PASTOR VITALE: Just exactly as you did. Listen to the message, A Mature Look At Deliverance Ministry, review it. You give of your strength in what you do. Christ in me was knocked down. I got physically sick and what happened to me was this. I put it on the board for you the other night, this is me, here on the inside of me is Christ, and that is a spirit. My spiritual world is Christ, and out here in the physical world is the carnal mind. I am a pretty spiritual person. I do not know where I would stand next to Jesus. Next to Jesus I am not very spiritual, but for the church today I am a pretty spiritual person.
A large part of my existence is within, a lot of my needs are being met from the Christ within. I still have to eat and I still need shelter, but most of my needs are being met within. When my body got sick, what Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, does, he puts pressure on the outer realms and he causes me.... I really was not in pain this time but I was sick. What happens is this part of me that is reaching inward to the Christ withdraws. Why? Because all of my resources are forced to the outer realm to survive, to get this body well, to get the sore throat gone, to get myself fed, just to survive until this body is healed. All of my resources are forced into the outer realms, and Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, takes this opportunity, because what happened was, I let go of Christ.
Look at it this way, I am climbing out of a big pit and I am really hanging on up there, and all of a sudden my toes started hurting me. I had to let go to take care of my toe, well let me not even say hanging on, let us say I am in a battle. Let us make it really glamorous. I am in a sword duel, and I am dueling with everybody, and I get hit. I get hit with the sword, and I fall down, and I am bleeding. I may let go of the sword, if I am hit bad enough to try to plug up the blood. My opponent jumps all over me and zooms in and if he could do it he would totally kill me, but he cannot do it.
That is what happened, I got wounded. There was some kind of weakness that permitted my body to get sick, because I am involved in such a measure of spiritual warfare that I am dwelling within to such a degree, holding off the enemies of my soul. Who are the enemies of my soul? It is my body and my carnal mind which is right here fighting them off to such a measure that when my body gets sick and lets go of Christ, my spiritual enemies dump all over me. If they could do it they would kill me. If Jesus did not have His hand on me they would kill me, there is not a doubt in my mind. That is the extent to which I am living in the realm of God's Spirit. Do you know what I am talking about?
This is what happened. At this point, I have a little cold, and I am really not sick anymore, it is all in my emotions. Now I am all out here, and what happens is that somehow, I cannot do it, I do not have the strength to do it, I have to withdraw from the outer realms. I have to reestablish my position with Christ.
I do not have the strength to do it, quite frankly, I have told you this before. It is like a small child, a one year old child or nine month old child that takes a couple of steps and falls down. They just lay there and cry until you come and pick them up. They can walk when you put them on their feet. When they fall down, they cannot get up.
COMMENT: You use the word oppression, is it also depression?
PASTOR VITALE: I do not really know what the difference is. I know the church makes a big deal over it, but I do not really know what the difference is to tell you the truth. Can you tell me what the difference is?
COMMENT: I know I have been oppressed by different things that are going on around me but I was not depressed, I had full faculty of my mind and my reasoning powers, I did not feel overwhelmed within.
PASTOR VITALE: I am overwhelmed, yes, I am overwhelmed. Of course, it could be worse, I am here, and I studied for a few hours, and I fully intend to preach to you. I am not all that overwhelmed, but for me I am overwhelmed. Other people respond to this in different ways. Some people would not be in church tonight if they were going through what I am going through. They would not be here. Other people would be involved in compulsive behavior, other people become abusive and they get into fights with people. All a sign of being overwhelmed.
I am partially overwhelmed, but I think as far as God is concerned, the only thing that matters is that I am here and I have been here, I have not missed a meeting. I am not all that overwhelmed, but I am overwhelmed enough to be....I am not in good shape. I am hurting very severely and troubled in my mind, and in my emotions, and in my soul. What I have to do is wait for Jesus to bring this change. He has to take me up.
If you can just think of a small child, I am just laying there kicking my feet, I cannot get up. I have this on a message. I told you this before, I cannot get up. He has to get me back up on my feet. He has to suck me out of this physical world back into His spiritual world. It has been my experience that every time this happens, when He sucks me back in, I go in a little deeper. What you do for me, is that the Christ in you is strengthening the Christ in me. The Christ in me has been tread underfoot of the carnal mind, and I cannot get up. That is what you do when you lay hands on me and pray for me, you strengthen the Christ in me, because this again is the reality.
I have this on message 31. Satan, the unconscious part of the mind, is a tree. He is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. The Christ in us is a tree also, but the tree of Christ fell down. The Scripture tells us in the book of Daniel that it was cut down, and that it is laying like this. Of course, there are no leaves on it, just trying to draw you a picture.
Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, up here with his carnal mind, has dominion over every part of this tree that has fallen down. Now, of course, we fell down in the hole, but in my case, I fell from the position where I was standing. What I am trying to tell you is that Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, does not move. Christ moves. This is me right now. My tree, the Tree of Life in me, fell down under Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. What the Lord has to do, He has to stand up again. Remember the Tree of Life is superimposed upon the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He has to stand up again and take dominion over Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind. I do not have the strength to do it.
I will tell you it is interesting, this warfare is very interesting. You are just stripped of everything, and all strength is in Christ. Right now this is like an in-between stage of the battle, and I have to wait for the Father to pick up Christ in me. Whether or not you know, if you were not here, He would do it without you. Sometimes asking people to pray for me helps and sometimes it does not. I cannot tell you when it helps and when it does not. I really do not have that completely figured out myself. I just know that if I am down I ask for help, and if He honors it, He honors it, and if He does not, He does not.
That is what happened, so the Christ in me has to stand up again, and it is taking awhile. You know, lots of times these things happen, and I do not even have the full understanding of what hit me. All I know is that my body went down, and I slept for almost three days straight on and off. When I wake up, I had lost hold of the authority that I had over my carnal mind. She is jumping all over me, trying to bring me down the rest of the way, but she cannot. This is, if you want to relate this to yourself, this is the key, this is the key. As long as she cannot stop you from doing what you are supposed to do, you know that you are pretty strongly rooted in Christ.
This is your acid test. If she can get you to leave the ministry, if she can get you to stay away for a night, if she can get you to come in an hour late, or whatever. If you know that you are supposed to do it in Christ and you do not do it, you know that you have lost ground. If you are doing it, it does not matter how much you are hurting, what kind of pain you are in, if you are doing what God has called you to do. You should know that you are entering into this war, and you just hold on and it is just a matter of time until He stands you up again. If you yield to this thing, if you leave the ministry, if you run away, you throw yourself all the way back. Then God has to go out and get you out of the pig pen.
Everybody is going to fall down, this is the procedure, this is the process, you fall down, He picks you up and you get stronger. You fall down, He picks you up and you get stronger. I am sure everybody here can relate to that. The more you hold on to what you have, the faster He is going to pick you up. The attack of the enemy, which is not coming anywhere except from your own mind, it may come from the outside and attack your hold on Christ, but the biggest source of your problem is your own carnal mind. Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, in your own mind, if you yield to that, and you take off for three years, you have lost three years. That is the size of it. This is your line and plummet for yourself. If you get hit, I do not know what is going to happen to you. I cannot tell you that you are going to go through the exact thing that I have gone through, I do not know.
You know, I do not really see any of you here going into the kind of oppressions that I go into. This is the route, everyone is taking a slightly different route, but we are all going to wind up in the same place. I do not know whether this is my route or this is happening to me because of my childhood, because of my upbringing. Maybe everyone is going to have go through this, and I am ahead of you, I really honestly do not know. Maybe I am going through this because I am the preacher, and right now you are not. Maybe I am going through this because I am bringing forth the doctrine of the hour, maybe other ministers do not go through this. I have heard enough to know that they go through a lot, whether or not they go through this much I do not know. I have heard a lot of stories, they go through a lot. People in the ministry really standing for Christ really go through a lot. Why? Because Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, wants to bring the ministry down.
I have told you this before and I will tell you again. I thank you for your prayers, so hold me up, do not tear me down, because if this ministry comes down, you are still going to wind up where God called you to, but you could lose five years. That is the truth, I am telling you the truth. It could take God anywhere from 5 years to a generation to raise up another ministry to do this job. It is hard to believe. I am telling you God never ceases to amaze me. He has all the time in the world. Five years to Him is a blink of the eye, but to us that is a long time. Five years to not have the doctrinal and other blessings that He is pouring out here is nothing to Him. Did you want to say something?
COMMENT: Pastor Vitale, we all have our sandpaper in our lives, but you know what I was thinking about you, as far as having your sandpaper, it comes from all of us and anybody that is in the ministry. It is your sandpaper, you know, especially the one that has left and is out there somewhere, and is probably bringing oppression to you, because of being out in the wilderness.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, that is one source.
COMMENT: I feel that this is what is happening with you now, that outside forces are coming against you, as I said the one that is out there somewhere, and of course all of those that you send the messages to, the doctrine, you know, coming against you....
PASTOR VITALE: You have to realize...now look, I do not want anyone to think that it is all somebody else's fault, because it is not. What happens, everything that you are talking about, what they have contributed, what they have done, whether they are aware of it or not, if they have hit on my hands and caused me to let go of Christ in some measure, that is what they have done, but I let go, I let go. There is no condemnation in this, but you are not going to get through by hearing me tell you that I am just some innocent victim, I let go. Do you hear me?
There is no condemnation, I was not strong enough to hold on, but every time I let go and He brings me back, I get stronger, every day. I want to tell you that what I have been through these last three months, I would not have survived a year ago. The Lord was talking to me the other day, it is almost five full years since the ministry started. This is what the Lord told me, most of the people that He calls to ministry, well first of all they are usually men, they are usually males who are men in the world. God does not usually bring weak people to the ministry. Are you aware that a lot of people that God calls to the ministry fail? They are destroyed, the spiritual forces come against the most basic ministry, forget about what we are doing here, the spiritual forces rise up against you to kill you. No matter how basic your ministry is, a lot of people leave the ministry, they cannot survive. Are you aware of it? It is true. I am telling you the truth. Most of the people that God calls are males and they are usually masculine men that would be considered men in the world.
What do I mean by that? That they are not oversensitive, like some women are, that a lot of them are business men. If you could, ask around and find out what these men were before they became pastors. We have an ex-insurance broker here, we have ex-business men, all kinds of executive jobs. Some of them are not educated, but if they would have had the education, well they were either in their own business or they were out there in some tough kind of business. Saunders, in Connecticut, was a steam fitter. He was a rough, tough man in construction, he could handle himself in the world. You see, I was not any of that. I was a weak female, who was physically dying and who had all kinds of emotional problems and problems relating to people. Everything that I am teaching you here, I learned from the Lord. I had very bad relationships. I did not know what I was doing wrong. I just did what I was taught in my home, but I had a dysfunctional family. I was not the typical person that God calls to the ministry.
The reason the ministry is crawling as slowly as it is, is that it is waiting for me. The Lord had to make me into what a lot of these men started out with, or the spiritual forces in the people would have killed me. I am telling you the truth, the spiritual forces are in the people. They are not free floating spirits. What comes against a minister is the minds of the people, the carnal minds of the people. It does not matter whether they know what they are doing or not. It is killing the person that is standing in Christ and I am telling you the truth.
That is why we are going so slow, it is because I was not a rough, tough worldly man. I was an overwhelmed person, who was overwhelmed by life, and my body was almost dead. I was an overwhelmed person, I was not a man who had his household in order. I had to get all this correction to get to the point where a lot of these men start out. God did not do it that way with me. Every crisis that I have in this ministry, I know that He showed me that a year ago, I would not have survived it. It is not anybody's fault, that is just the way it is, "All things are working together for the good." Everyone that comes against me, it is an opportunity for me to overcome in righteousness. Now it is not enough to overcome, you have to overcome in righteousness. I let go this time, and my weakest, to the best of my knowledge the only weak point that I have left, is that when my body goes down, I let go when I get sick, I let go. What seems to happen is when a rage goes up in the realm of the spirit and enough people start coming against me consciously or unconsciously, it seems to make my body sick and I let go. I have to wait for the Lord to pick me up.
As I told you, this is the first time in my memory that this has happened to me. As these horrible thoughts are raging through my mind, I knew that it....I used to always believe it was real, "Well I do not want to preach anymore, get me out of the ministry. I am leaving town, packing up and leaving Long Island, I am going to California. I do not want any part of this anymore. I do not need this junk anymore, I am going to go get a job and live like a normal person." I would really....I would believe it, and I said, "I am going to do it." Then when God put me on my feet, I would say, "Well that is ridiculous, I did not mean that."
Through the whole time that all these thoughts are raging through my mind, I know that I do not really believe that. It is just an attack and it is a trial. God is going to pick me up, and I am going to pass through it. That is the first time this ever happened. As I said, I have a tremendous, whatever God has put in me, I have a tremendous ability to jump up, and every time I jump up, I come back stronger. I have had the most incredible life. I have matured and grown spiritually and emotionally with such a rate of speed that I do not know what is going to happen from here on in.
Up until recently, I would just leave friends behind me. I was such a radically different person, after one or two years, that I just had nothing in common with them anymore. What is happening now is, a lot of people that I have left behind, God is sending me back as a minister to them to help them. They were on the same level where I was, wherever that level of sin was. Then I did not want to do that stuff anymore, so I let them go. Now He is sending me back to help pull them out. I have never seen anyone grow like I grow. I had someone say to me once, they were there when I came into the church, and they never saw anything like it. They said, "You went like this, like a balloon with the air going out of it." That is the point, I let go and there is no glory to God in refusing to take responsibility. No glory to God at all in refusing to take responsibility in any area that we fail.
It is only temporary failure, if your heart is right towards God, it is only a temporary failure, and it honors Him to say, "I did it." In my case, I honestly believe I could not hold on, this is what I went through when I wound up in the hospital. I thought I failed. That is why I thought He was going to let me die. When I came around, He told me that I did not fail, I went down in battle. I fought to the very bitter end, and I was overcome. That is what happened to me.
I do not want to say it is impossible because that is asking for trouble, it is not impossible, but I rarely go down except when I am overcome. It is very rare that sin comes into my mind. Even if I lose it for the moment, I am definitely capable of losing it for the moment, but right after it happens, I recognize it. I will call it what it is, I will confess it, I will repent, and I am in right standing with God again. For me to be overtaken like this, I have to be beaten to a pulp.To the best of my knowledge, the only toe hold that Satan, the unconscious part of the carnal mind, has in my life is this weakness in my body. It causes me to let go, and then the carnal mind jumps all over me, treads Christ underfoot, and I just have to wait for the Lord to pick me up. I cannot get up. I do not have the strength to get up at this point. I believe it is a continuous growth process, and I believe the day will come that I will let go, and I will have the strength to get up and the Lord will be requiring me to pick myself up and just keep on going.
COMMENT: You could see that picture of you, you know you have something to hold on to.
PASTOR VITALE: I never really understood that Scripture, "Without a vision my people perish." I never understood it like I understand it now because the truth is if I did not have this, I would want to die. I really mean it, my life is, except for what God has given me in the ministry, He has taken everything from me, absolutely everything.
COMMENT: Is that not where we are supposed to be?
PASTOR VITALE: That is where we are supposed to be, but you tell that to someone that is feeling the loss. I cannot even tell you that it is painful anymore. I simply do not know who I am. I have this intellectual concept, well I am a preacher, and I got the Gospel, the message of perfection, and I see this vision of full stature, but in my own heart, I am so....my carnal soul, my adamic soul, my fallen adamic soul, is so fragmented that I do not even know who I am. I have no power over my own life. I have lostone of what is considered the basic things to human people, power to go out and provide for yourself. No matter how hard I work, I only have what He gives me, and until He is ready to give me more, I have nothing in that area nothing. What I have has nothing whatsoever to do with how hard I work. That is very hard for a human being that has been raised up under the work ethic that says you need to go out and go to work. I would tell that to anybody, you need some money, go get a job. You know, it is just a total disorientation in your mind.
Whether or not you are going to go through the same path, I do not know. I look at you and I do not see how this could happen to you because you all have husbands providing for you. I do not know what God is going to do for you. I believe that whatever He is going to do, you are going to have to come to a similar place where you have lost all power over your life to get your needs met. How that is going to come to pass, I do not know, but it has to happen, because it is the only way we are going turn inward to Him. He has just taken so much from me, I have identity crises, I do not know who I am, I am telling you the truth. There are things that I really cannot tell you, but I have identity crises, I do not even know how I survive. When I let go, it gets worse. Even when I am on top of it, I have the most incredible situations in my life that you would not believe. Maybe some day I will be able to tell you, I do not know. You would not believe it, I do not believe it. I do not believe that I am in the situations that I am in, and He has done it to me.
My prayer now is, "Well you have done all this to me, you utterly crushed me, now Christ has to arise in me." There is an in-between period, there is a waiting period where there is Christ in me, but I have no power. I cannot heal you of your problem with your foot. I am a vessel, and if Christ were to move through me, your foot would get healed, but I have no power. You know, if you just listen to any of the talk on the talk shows, everything is about control and power. Everybody wants power over their life, and if you do not have power over your life, it depresses you. This is the truth. If you could check into any psychology book, this is what they will tell you, a lack of power over your own life can drive you to suicide. I have no power over my life at all.
Do you understand what I am saying? When I am really down, I lose my identity, I do not even know who or what I am. Here I am on the one hand, I am a preacher, I am bringing forth the doctrine of the hour, and I have no power over my own life. To the carnal mind, this is totally irrational because people that are in the office that I am in, in the world, they usually have all kinds of power over their life. I have no power. To the carnal mind, it is totally insane, and what it is doing is it is crushing my mind. It does not make any sense at all that I am bringing forth the doctrine that is going to convert people's lives and they are hating me. They are clawing at me, trying to kill me, ripping my brain out, lying about me, and misunderstanding everything I am trying to do. That, alone, is enough to make you crazy. The point is, that I have absolutely no power over my life.
COMMENT: This is where we should be, right? I feel that with us it is coming in small doses, you know small doses because I feel the crunch.
PASTOR VITALE: Do you feel it? Well, you could not take it any faster.
COMMENT: With you, now it is coming full blast.
PASTOR VITALE: I am far gone, I mean really, there is no place for me to go, I am in very deep.
COMMENT: I mean with all of the experiences that you have had so far, I can really see God moving in your life.
PASTOR VITALE: Oh, like a whirlwind, oh yes.
COMMENT: That place for us to be is really overwhelming, you know.
PASTOR VITALE: Once you get there, it is fantastic. I want to say the best part of where I am is that I hear the condition of the economy and say, "Well praise the Lord, I have absolutely nothing to worry about." If He does not uphold me, and if He would not uphold me now, I would be on the street. I am telling you money is a big part of it. I mean it is important in our society. I do not have a dollar in the bank. If He were to let anything happen to me, I would not have the money to go get another apartment, I would not have the money to get another car. If my car breaks, I have no money to fix my car. I have been driving around with a clutch that was supposed to go six months ago, it has not gone yet. I know either it is going to stay, or He is going to provide the money to fix it. That is the best part of the whole thing, that I am not the least bit worried about the economy.
I do not have to worry about my husband losing his job, getting put out to part time work or being retired. I do not have to worry about these things, so this is the best part of the whole thing. I definitely have the vision that when I get it all the way, it is going to be glorious. Just like now, you were a part of it when you saw that table and chairs come. I mean that was exciting, that table and chairs that God gave us, right? She was in the car with me. I drove passed the street, and I saw the chair. You probably did not even notice it, and the Lord told me to go back for it. I asked for the chair, and I got four chairs and a table. I mean, that is the way. It was mind boggling.
This is the way God moves in the life of someone who has been totally apprehended by Him. This is the way He moves. To get into a place like that, you have to lose everything. You have to go through what I am going through, there is not a doubt in my mind. God has spoken to me. He told me that this financial condition that I am in is not going to be forever. It is a transition. I had to let go completely, it is just a trial. It is a transition that I must go through before the provision. Of course, all of my needs are met, but I have no power over what I do or where I go. Someone said, to me not long ago, "Why do you not go and visit your daughter?" I do not have the air fare to go visit my daughter. You know, people cannot believe it. I guess they think I am rich because of these television preachers or something. I cannot get on a plane. You know, God forbid if there was an accident, and my daughter needed me, I do not have any money to get on a plane to go down there. That is how dependent I am.
It is not so much that it is a trial, but it is a transition of a stripping of everything. God will take away everything of the old way before.... well that is not true.... it is, but there is an overlapping. What He is doing is He is pouring in enough of the new just to meet my basic needs. I do not know How much longer this is going to go on, but I know that He has told me that it is necessary, that there is no other way. It is not going to be this way forever.
It has to be His way, and I have to hold on to the horns of the altar, there is just no other way. I have to do it, you know, but it is painful. It is very exciting, but the problem is, it is painful to you. It is very painful, there is no way to get away from the pain. Just hang on, everyone is going to have to go through it at least to some measure, but the end of it is going to be Christ.
COMMENT: I am reading in I Peter 4:4, "He that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin." When you said that it made me think of that, suffering.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, sin is in the carnal mind, so when you suffer to have this ripped out of you, you see some sin, because you move completely into Christ.
COMMENT: When you talk about these things, I laugh at them because, to me, they are very comical. This is how my childhood was spent, for fifteen years of my marriage I had this existence.
PASTOR VITALE: Well then, with you, maybe it will be something else.
COMMENT: I was thinking, you and the Lord, because you seem to see a difference between control and power. I see a big contrast between the two. You said that you have no control over your life, no power, but you are not a drug addict, you are not in to a lot of things that people have no control over. That is not true, I do not believe that you do not have any control over your life. You may feel a sense of your own power.
PASTOR VITALE: I have none of my own power, I do not have my own power.
COMMENT: You are waiting on the power of God, that is what you are doing.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, you try it, it is very painful. I have no power over the circumstances of my life.
COMMENT: With you being out in the business world and things like that, that was a very powerful source in your life. I had to do without that for a long, long time.
PASTOR VITALE: It is much easier for the women that have been dependent upon their husbands. See, what I am going through is what a man would go through, a man who has been the breadwinner. I have been the breadwinner. You go out there and you do what you have to do. I never had to ask anybody if I could spend any money or go anywhere or do anything. To clarify this for you, I have no control over the circumstances of my life. Do you understand that?
COMMENT: To me that would not be a sense of loss of power. If I have no control over the circumstances, to me I would sit back and acknowledge that God was doing something.
PASTOR VITALE: Well then, He is going to have to do it in another way. You have to have your area and, to be quite frank with you, you are very much in control of your life. Sometimes I talk to you, and I do not think that you are aware of it, but you are very much in control.
COMMENT: Most of the time, I had no control, no say whatsoever. This is a new area, what I am thinking is the flip side. You had all the control in your younger life, I had none, and now the Lord is giving me control. You know, the Lord gives you what you are prepared for, when you know how to use it and not abuse it.
PASTOR VITALE: It is going to have to go, do you understand that it is going to have to go?
COMMENT: That is fine with me. I will take whatever He gives me, I will just thank Him.
PASTOR VITALE: Well then, maybe you will not have the pain that I have, that is fine. Everybody has their area, everybody has their area where it is going to be very painful.
COMMENT: In your years did you ever have the mental anguish to the point that your mind was like molasses? That you truly could not function?
PASTOR VITALE: I have been pretty close, yes.
COMMENT: What about you girls as well, did you ever get to the place where your mind was molasses, and you could not function and actually see a breakdown that you had no control of?
PASTOR VITALE: See xxxx, what has happened to you is that you had this serious problem and God built you up in your natural man. It is the same principle as someone being in a wheelchair, and God raised them up out of the wheelchair, but their personality was not changed. It is a gift of the imputed anointing. What He did was, He patched you up. The natural person that you are, you probably could not survive that way, so He patched you up and healed you as a natural person. Now it is time for Christ to come forth in you and all the patching is going to have to come down. It is still all your strength in your carnal man.
Do you understand what I am talking about? They used to call it a band-aid. He used to be against healing people, He said it is just a band-aid. I am not against healing people, but God gave you a crutch so that you could survive until the time when He is going to give you a new mind, which is Christ. Everything that He has done in you is going to have to come down. You are pretty strong, you are going to have to let go of a lot. A lot that you are not aware of at the moment.
COMMENT: I do not feel strong. I feel everything that I have or do is only because of Him. I know how helpless I was. I am totally dependent upon Him.
PASTOR VITALE: You are going to find out how strong you are. That is where you have to start, because you are very strong. You have a very strong personality, and it as...well, as everyone else in competition with the Christ in you, is going to have to be broken. If you do not realize, if you do not feel strong, that is where you have to start. He is going to have to show you your strength because you are very strong.
COMMENT: I do see the strength I have now because I knew when I did not have it. I do know it is from Christ, I do know it is not from me. I know that my dependency is upon Him, my confidence in Him and assurance in Him.
PASTOR VITALE: Anyone else want to try and explain it to her?
COMMENT: I believe what the Lord is saying through Pastor Vitale is that I did not have a molasses mind, I did not go through that extreme where I had to completely depend upon my husband. Then I went through a process of where I was in control. God has to break all that even though God may have given it to me, it was only for a season.
PASTOR VITALE: It is temporary.
COMMENT: My cry, all the time is, "God I want to be broken, I want to have all my carnal mind smashed so there is no identity that anybody can see in me but Christ." That is a long process. Little by little He is going to hack away with our willingness to let Him. He is going to hack away and hack away until we are going through a stage similar to what she is going through until our mind is fully Christ. I am not there. Before I speak, I know it is not Christ saying every word through me, and I know it is not in Pastor Vitale yet, but it is going to be. He is allowing her to go through this so we can see. We are all going to go through it. I do not know how severe, but we are going to go through until no one knows us, but they know the Christ in us. They will know that you are xxxx and she is xxxx and she is xxxx, but they will see the Christ more than anything else.
PASTOR VITALE: Let me just try it one more time. You were going to be destroyed, so He built you up, and He made you what would be the equivalent of a strong unsaved person. That is what He made you, the equivalent of, a strong unsaved person. Now He is going to deal with you as with everyone else in the church. That strength has to be broken so that His strength could come through you.
COMMENT: I am not automatically saying that we should not be concerned about not having power over our own lives. It is the Lord having His power and control over us and working. Everything is going to fall where it is supposed to be, as we walk on with Him.
PASTOR VITALE: I do not know what you just said xxxx, try it again.
COMMENT: That you seem to be disturbed about not having power over your life. Would that not cause you to understand or identify with Christ? Everything is going along exactly as the program of God.
PASTOR VITALE: xxxx, this is not an intellectual thing, if it causes you pain, it causes you pain.
COMMENT: It seems to go beyond pain for you, it causes you to be robbed of peace.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, and it is going to happen to you too. You do not think that it is going to happen to you?
COMMENT: I have been in pain and yet, not robbed of peace. I am talking about after I have known the Lord, after I have come to a place in Him, before that of temptation everywhere.
PASTOR VITALE: What are we talking about here, what are you trying to say?
COMMENT: That this is exactly how God wants it. I was listening to your other message about that we have to give all of the control over to Him. He wants us to lose our own control, because He wants to be in control and let go.
PASTOR VITALE: What do you think about me being in all of this pain?
COMMENT: That it is the normal function of where you are.
PASTOR VITALE: Do you recognize that there has to be pain?
COMMENT: To a degree, not the emotional pain but....
PASTOR VITALE: Maybe I am misunderstanding you. I know lots of times I misunderstand you so please, straighten me out. What I hear you saying to me is what you would be saying to a woman on the labor table screaming her head off. You would be saying to her, "Why are you screaming dear? Do you not know that it is painful to have a baby?" That is what I hear you saying to me. Is that what you hear? Does anyone else hear that?
COMMENT: I had my children, and I felt the pain, but my mind was not in torment. I knew what it was going to bring forth, it was worth it.
PASTOR VITALE: What I hear you saying to me, and tell me if I am wrong, is that I should not be having this pain, or that I should not be talking about pain. I feel that you are criticizing me, is that not true? What are you saying?
COMMENT: That it is something that is not out of the ordinary. In other words, I see it as a normal pressure, that is what I am saying.
PASTOR VITALE: Why would...help me to understand you because I feel that you are criticizing me, so help me to understand you, why would you be saying this? What I see you saying to me is, "Well it is a normal pressure. Why are you even talking about it?" That is what I hear you saying. It is coming at me as a criticism, either criticism or some kind of religious spirit that is telling me that I should not be...that I should be ignoring this, when it is healing to me to talk about it.
COMMENT: It will pass, and it is in His plan. In other words, it is not something you are going through, the labor pains and you know it. Time is going to take care of it, the process is in place, and it is not that you have lost any control or power.
PASTOR VITALE: I see. You are saying that I have not lost control. I knew you were criticizing me. Listen to what you are saying, maybe criticizing is not the word. Let us talk about this. I am sitting here saying that I feel that I have lost power, and you are telling me that what I am feeling is invalid. You are saying, "No Pastor Vitale, you have not lost power." Is that not true?
COMMENT: I understand the difference between power and control. I feel you have more control, and I believe you have a loss of a sense of power. I do not understand because I do not see the difference of what you mean by power and control.
PASTOR VITALE: This is what it comes down to that I am telling you, I have lost power over my own life, and I have lost control over my own life, and I believe that. I hear you telling me that it is not true.
COMMENT: You do hear me saying that. I do not feel it is true.
PASTOR VITALE: Let me ask you then...
COMMENT: I see you as doing well, and you are blessed by God of the anointing.
PASTOR VITALE: Let me say this to you, what you said to me did not encourage me. It is coming at me as an attack because it is telling me that, it is making me deny what I see. Do you hear what I am saying?
COMMENT: Is it a cover up?
PASTOR VITALE: Is what a cover up? It is a denial of what I am going through, that is how I perceive it, that it is denying what I am going through.
COMMENT: Do not worry about it, you are going through something and do not worry about it.
PASTOR VITALE: Let us not deal with it, it is okay, just do not think about it.
COMMENT: You know what you are going through is a natural process and do not worry about it, it is alright.
COMMENT: Not, do not worry about it. Be encouraged that everything is on course, and He is taking you through. To me it is an encouragement, because even when I go through hard times, I think I have gone through this before and He has taken me through.
COMMENT: It is a protection. You are trying to protect her so that she does not....
COMMENT: No, encourage her, I cannot protect her, God has to do that.
COMMENT: It is the words.
PASTOR VITALE: What is the motive for saying what you said?
COMMENT: That He has brought you through this before and He will do it again. He is doing it now. He is undergirding even though you, perhaps, got a conscious understanding of that at the moment.
PASTOR VITALE: What I would like to point out to you xxxx, if I can, I want to give you something to pray about. I realize now, I believe, that you were trying to encourage me. What you intended to say to me was that it is a trial, and you are going to pass through and everything is going to be fine, which I thank you for that. What I would like to point out to you, is that is not what you said. That your words did not really express what you intended to say to me. That is something that should be considered. It is important that our words express what we intend to say, and it is very important that we use the words that express what we mean. No, it did not sound like that. What the words said, the words denied my problem. It is very important.
COMMENT: I think you are going through something now. Each of us is going to have to go through the same thing at different points in our life. Maybe I was when I was younger, and I am not going to go through it now, and vise versa. Even with my children, different things were said, one daughter would say this is...., and the other would say, no, I cannot understand what mom was saying. In other words, they hear us if they have rejection in them, in their heart they are going to feel rejection. In other words, whatever they have in them is going to....
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, xxxx, that is only to a degree. It is real important, and I have told you this before. You have to use the words that I am going to be able to know what you are talking about. We have talked about this. We are going to be Sons of God, brethren, we are going to be Sons of God. You do not have to be eloquent, but I am giving you something to pray about. The words that came out of your mouth did not express that thought. Now I have a peace when I hear what you really meant to say, I have a peace about it. You should know that the words that came out of your mouth discouraged me and hurt me, and you did not say that. What I heard was a denial of what I was going through. The words that you said made me feel otherwise. It is important that you know that, and it is important that you know that, that it is not fair to people to expect them to interpret what you say. You have to use the words that mean what you say.
COMMENT: I have people calling me for counseling, just like today, like xxxx, for instance you know, he is talking about suicide. I told him time and time again the Lord kept you yesterday, He is going to keep you today. Is that not encouragement? I am not denying what they are feeling, what they are hurting about, I am trying to tell them, look....
PASTOR VITALE: That is good, that is wonderful, but that is not what you said to me. I am not here to rip you apart, but I am here to tell you brethren, we are in the army of the Lord. If this is what happened, we have all got to make changes, where changes are necessary. We should be speaking the words that reflect what we mean, and if we do not do it, God will help us to do it. It is a problem, and you do it too, and that is why you are together on this. It does not glorify God. If you could just pray about it, He will confirm it to you. He will help you to make the change. Why would anyone want to speak words that could possibly give someone else a misunderstanding. Why would you want to do that? You would not want to do it, I know you would not want to do it. There is no reason to want to do it. You would not want to speak words of encouragement that sound like words of criticism, why would anyone want to do that? I am making you aware of it, that is all.
COMMENT: (words inaudible).
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, well I believe that is true about you, and I have told you, you are in a lot of denial, and denial, that is the way God lets you deal with the problems until He is ready to deal with the sin in your soul. He strengthened up your carnal personality because you were dying, and that was okay for a season to forget the pain, but now we are in a different move of God, and He wants things dealt with.
COMMENT: When you talk about denial that makes me laugh because I have never been one that escaped anything or tried to put anything under the rug. In fact, it was always more important that the things inside were better. I had a girlfriend that used to tell me that my house could be all scattered with toys and things and what not, but my drawers were always in order. She was just the opposite. She always had it polished on the outside, and she could not care if there was garbage in the drawers. That is how I was, the things inside have to be settled first, and I am still that way. I have never looked to escape but to face, trace it, face it, and erase it.
PASTOR VITALE: Well, the Lord is going to have to show it to you.
COMMENT: He will, because if there is such a thing, I am truly blind to it.
PASTOR VITALE: Yes, well I know that, you are truly blind to it. He is going to do it, He is going to show it to you. I believe He has already.
COMMENT: I really do not know what you are talking about, you know. I do not know if it is just ignorance on my part, but I do not know what you are talking about.
PASTOR VITALE: There is nothing to feel bad about. God...what He is doing in this ministry is that He is revealing everything in all of us that is of our carnal mind. If it is a carnal way of dealing with a problem, He wants it exposed, and He wants us to start to deal with it in Christ. He is not here to hurt or destroy. Well, He is here to destroy our carnal mind. He is not here to do any damage to anybody for damage sake, and neither am I. There are certain things that have to be dealt with, that is why we are here, because we are going to be a Son.
You know, you have to realize, all of you, that when God starts bringing the disciples in, it is very important that you learn to express yourselves with words that reflect what you are trying to say. People's minds, people's lives are going to be touched by what you say. It is very important. If something like this is revealed, well you pray about it and God will start calling it to your attention, that is all, no big deal. I go through this all the time, I am not doing anything here that I do not go through. It is really important. It is really important because you are going to be delivering the Word of the Lord to other people.
It is not enough for you to have it in your mind and speak it out in words that are going to be misunderstood. We have to get the training on both levels. Our carnal mind has to be put down so that we can hear the thoughts of the Lord, and if there is a problem with communicating it properly, that is the easy part. We are going to be ministering to a lot of people, and we are going to be holding lives in our hands. I want to tell you that I think I speak very clearly, I am very articulate, I am very well spoken. People walk out of here and say that I said things that I cannot even believe that they think that I said that. If they are doing that to me when I am articulate, what is going to happen with you? Really, it is a simple little thing to get your articulation correct.
COMMENT: I was laughing, I was listening to one of your messages. I go around with the earphones on and I do my work around the house, and I was listening to one of the messages. It is the one on dream interpretation. You said things at the end of that, I do not remember, I just did not hear it, it did not click. Then my mind would focus in on something that you were saying, and by that time you had gotten two or three thoughts ahead of me, my mind could not comprehend it, because I had never heard it before.