Physical & Adult Children, Discipline And Spiritual Growth


Father, in the Name of Jesus, we thank You for all things. We thank You that we are gathered together today, Lord, and we pray that you grace us with Your Word for us today. We pray for the country, Lord, and the brave men and women who are standing for the principles of righteousness. May Congress execute Your will, Lord. You, the one they pray to, when they open session, may Your Spirit prevail over all things that they do. May righteousness prevail over the witchcraft and mind control that is raging. We pray especially for Henry Hyde and the House Managers, Lord, that they should remain strong and healthy, and attuned to Your Spirit. That they should be defensed against the evil being hurled at them. We declare, Lord, that this country has been dedicated to you, and is rededicated to you in every oath of Government office that is executed, and in every prayer prayed by the Chaplin for the Congress. Also, many citizens of this great land still exalt your Name, Lord. Therefore, we declare that you will surely move on behalf of your own righteousness. That it should not be said that those who call upon you Name should be ashamed. Move on our behalf, oh God. Defeat the enemies of this great land. Restore us to righteousness, that you Name should be exalted amongst us again.

We will wait for a Word. The floor is open.

PSALM 29 2: I don't know if this means anything, but I've heard from 3 older people in the last month so that the problem with society today is that children just disciplined This seems to be a repetitive theme in my conversations with men and women over 60 about their children and the children today.

LivingEM: Sorry, I was praying and just noticed your comment. The Lord spoke to me and said that victory is rising from the east and will be manifested shortly to all those who fear His Name. This is an encouraging Word, but let us not draw any conclusions about what "the Lord's victory" is, or what "shortly" means. We hope for the best in all things.

Psalm - I will be glad to discuss your comment another time, or later, if the Lord works it into this message, but for now I must go with the Spirit.

PSALM 29 2: okay, thanks

LivingEM: Thank you for your contribution.

PSALM 29 2: you're welcome

LivingEM: Drawing conclusions can be very dangerous, especially drawing conclusions about what the Lord says. Many have stumbled because they interpret the Word of the Lord with their carnal mind. But this happens amongst people also. Misunderstandings can arise between a spiritual and a carnal person, and also between two carnal people, when one person interprets what the other person says.

Does anyone know the difference between being "objective" and being "subjective"? To be "subjective" means that we look at everything through our own past experiences and ideas. In other words, if our life experience is that "people" are hurtful, when we meet a new person we will expect them to hurt us. The "objective" truth, however, is that some people hurt us, but not all people will hurt us. Therefore, we must take each person on their own merits.

This means that, if we are to be "objective," we must give everyone a chance to demonstrate who and what they are. To draw conclusions about people that we really don't know is to be "subjective." To meet everybody with an open mind, thinking the best of them, until they prove otherwise, is the sign of an "objective" person.

But neither are we to be foolish, thinking that everyone is "good." Human relationships can be likened to two fighters in a ring. When they first come out at the sound of the bell, they size each other up. We are to give all men the benefit of the doubt, believing that they are just trying to survive in this world like we are. We should think the best of them until they give us reason to think otherwise. Then, when we have reason to think otherwise, we should respond directly to their behavior, not to our memory of past offenses.

So we see that to be "subjective" can be dangerous to our life, when we apply the opinions we have formed based on our experiences with "some" people, to "other" people. This is one of the foundations of prejudice. And fear is always underneath our "subjective" opinions.

The world that we live in is a spiritual jungle, where people try to harm each other all of the time. Our physical environment can be a jungle, but it doesn't have to be. But our spiritual world is always a jungle. Human relationships are very difficult, and only those who are trained to relate to other people fly above the danger.

For centuries our human inadequacies were dealt with by the "Law." For those who were raised in families, the father was king. What he said was "Law." It didn't matter whether we understood "why" there was such a law. If we broke the law, we were physically punished. It didn't take us very long to realize that it made more sense to say "yes sir" than to be hurt. It made more sense to ask to be excused before we left the table, than to be hurt. So we learned how to get along in this world without "understanding why."

Psalm - I think you are getting the answer to your comment.

PSALM 29 2: thank you

LivingEM: I know someone who was beaten with a strap as a child because their mother thought that they stole a book from the school library. When the child insisted that she did not, she was beaten again for lying. Well, it was finally discovered that the child had accidentally returned the wrong book to the school library, and the monitor who received the book -- instead of telling the librarian that it had no "borrower's card," took it upon herself to make a "borrower's card" and glued it into the book. The librarian mistakenly assumed that the child had stolen the schoolbook and replaced it with her own book -- and that had gone to the extent of making up a false "borrower's card" to cover her crime. So the child was beaten several times.

We are maturing as a society today. One of the major events of this generation, I believe, is an increase in communication. In past generations there was very little communication. Children did what they were told to do, or they where physically punished. Wives took care of the children and the household, and accepted the fact that their husbands worked long hours. The "family day" was Sunday, when everyone went to church and then had a family dinner. The men spoke to the men, and the women spoke to the women.

Today, many people want more out of life. Women want more from their husbands, and husbands want more from their wives. Men are spending less time with the boys, and more time with their wives. Children have less responsibilities in the home.

This is what I believe is happening. The law has been relaxed. People now want their emotional needs met. Years ago, the only thing people thought about was eating and having a roof over their head.

People can live under the law when they are immature, and survive. They can do this because they know what the law says, and they know that if they do it, they will survive in this world. But today, people have choices. Many are departing from the "old ways" of doing things, and learning for themselves how to survive in this world. In other words, many today are learning from their own personal experiences. They are no longer doing things because their parents did it that way. Many today want to understand "why." So we see many rules being broken.

The whole country is under a spirit of rebellion. But there is nothing new under the sun. This is the story of Adam and Eve. Adam did not do what his father told him to do, and now his descendants are learning about good and evil by having good and evil experiences.

This is not all bad. We cannot be creative so long as we are under the law. When we learn from experience we grow spiritually. If we just do what the law says we can avoid a lot of pain, but refusing to sin because we have experienced the sting of reaping what we have sown, is a much stronger defense than the law.

One of the results of coming out from under the law is immaturity. I think I said earlier that immature people can survive if they know and obey the law, but those who come out from under the law and are immature, are at a great disadvantage at first. They have rejected the law, and now they must learn about life for themselves.

I have learned many things. I was a progressive mother. My child spent so much time in my and my husband's bed, that she didn't get her own bed until later on. I have learned that this was not wise, but I understand many do this today. Years ago, you put the baby in the crib and he cried himself to sleep. But today the whole emphasis in our society is on satisfying ourselves. And because so many adults are concerned with satisfying themselves, they tend to be very concerned with satisfying their children. It is my opinion that to make self-satisfaction a priority in life is very dangerous.

Our first priority should be to be strong. Strong in our mind and strong in our bodies, because this is a hard world. Discipline is what makes us strong. Satisfaction without discipline makes us weak. Righteousness must be a top priority. Even if it means lacking material things. There are many childish adults in our society who have rejected the social law, and there are many young people growing up today who are lacking the social skills that they need to prosper in our society.

I have been saying for many years now, that brains are not enough. Someone who is smart enough to go through college and obtain advanced degrees, can still fail in our society. I have seen it happen. At the moment I can think of an accountant who had his own business, but gave up everything to live outside of society with very little money. His mother was very grieved.

There are always stories of doctors or lawyers winding up as alcoholics or drug addicts and losing everything. Why? How can this happen?

The answer is spiritual weakness. Education without character will not bear much fruit. Money without morality will not bear much fruit. Discipline does not necessarily mean cruelty, although there is such a thing as cruel discipline. Discipline helps us to survive in hard times. All human beings need to know what is expected of them, and children are no exception. There was a time in this country where "credit" was unheard of. Today there is so much financial irresponsibility that many pay thousands of dollars in interest, rather than to accumulate the money that they need before making a purchase.

Many are learning the hard way today. But not all learn from their experiences. Does anyone know what the Bible calls the person who doesn't learn from experience?

Myprecous1: a fool

LivingEM: Yes. A fool. According to the Bible, there is not any mistake that you can make, or any knowledge that you can lack, that will qualify you to be a fool. Only those with an unteachable spirit are in this category. They keep making the same mistake over and over again. Does anyone know what the judgment is for the fool?

JSNGSNG: rod of correction

LivingEM: Yes.

Psalms 53:1 - The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity, there is none that doeth good.

Pro 7:22 - He goeth after the [harlot] straightaway as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks.

So we see that the Scripture likens a fool to Adam's ox. Can anyone tell us what Adam's ox did that was so foolish?

LAMB4114: She allowed the influence of the serpent to touch her.

LivingEM: Yes, Lamb. She obeyed the Primordial Serpent rather than Adam.

And is this not what so many are doing today? The personalities of humanity are Adam's ox which is learning by painful experience.

Pro 10:8 - The wise in heart will receive commandments, but a prating fool shall fall.

Pro 10:18 - He who hideth hatred with lying lips and he that uttereth slanderis a fool.

LivingEM: Does anyone know why these qualities are foolish?

Pro 10:24 - The fear of the wicked, it shall come upon him He shall reap what he sows.

Discipline goes hand in hand with righteousness. Both physical children and adult children need discipline. Discipline is correction, but does not necessarily mean physical punishment. If physical punishment is necessary, it should not be in anger. It should be very clear to the child that he is reaping what he sowed.

I have not seen much of criminal court and police action, but from what I have seen, judges, police and parole officers are often very kind to criminals. They tell the criminal or parolee what will happen if they break the rules, and if the rules are broken the consequences ensue without question.

And so it should be with children. Many parents today are very immature themselves and not truly capable of disciplining children correctly. I have seen children run rings around their parents. This is very dangerous for all concerned. I think we should demand a high standard of each other and of our children. Social graces are very important. Children must be taught to say hello and goodbye, to honor their relatives with a kiss, to hold doors for adults and to not talk when adults or anyone else is talking I have seen children interrupt adult conversations, and the parents do nothing. Children and adults are not equal. But many children are being raised today to believe that they are equal to adults in many ways.

Adult children have a problem recognizing authority. If you can't recognize authority, you cannot submit to authority, and if you cannot submit to authority, you are a rebel. And the next step in you life, or in your children's lives, if the curse is passed on, is for the physical or adult child who cannot recognize authority to take authority over the adult, or other authority. This is what happened when the Primordial Serpent killed Adam. This is what Jesus meant when He said, if you are not for me you are against me.

No two people are ever equal. Submission is a choice. In the jungle days, the physically strongest prevailed. Today, frequently, the mentally strongest prevails. But the Scripture says that the God-ordained authority prevails, and that those who are physically stronger, or mentally stronger than the one the Lord has raised up, shall submit to the Lord's choice. Why? Because we are civilized men. The law of the jungle does not rule us. Christ Jesus rules us. Our reason rules us.

There are many today who are saying that we should be free to do whatever we feel like doing sexually. This opinion is widespread today, but not many have heard the small group that is saying that we should be able to take whatever we want from anyone who has what we want. We laugh at that now, but will we be laughing when this mode of thought catches on? I have known a few Christians who believed this mode of thought. How do we reconcile this train of thought with, "if you don't work, you don't eat"? And then there is, "relieve the widows and orphans."

Christ Jesus must rule over human emotions and carnal thought. When I returned to work in Manhattan after being a housewife for several years, I felt that I had to give money to everyone who asked for it. There are many needy people in Manhattan. But, to my shock, the Lord spoke to me very strongly one day as I was about to give a homeless women some money, saying," not a dime, until she repents."

Discipline will help both physical and adult children. Our society has a large population of adult children. Do you know that there are self-help groups for the adult child? Actually, there are several types of adult child groups. One of the greatest gifts we can give our children is to discipline them and reach them responsibility when they are still children. It is never too late to learn, but it is much more difficult and painful to grow up when you have reached physical adulthood as a child. I believe very strongly that children should be taught to be polite, and respect elders in all walks of life, relatives, teachers, bus drivers, etc.

But, at least here in New York, I see a society brutalizing itself. Adults as well as children running over each other, with no manners at all. It is a good discipline to talk to people with respect, even when you don't know them. This is a form of discipline. We should have high standards for ourselves. I have seen mothers telling their children to not to eat until everyone is seated at the table, and the father undoing the mother's discipline. It is good to know that you shouldn't eat until everyone is seated. These little things which seem so unimportant to many, separate us from the animals.

We are both, you know, man and animal. In Sunday's message we found that the Interlinear Text of Rev.18:2 speaks about the "bestial man." We must choose what we will be, and, then, by the strength of Christ Jesus, be that person. Mortal man has the potential to rise to the greatest heights in Christ Jesus, or sink to the lowest depths of depravity. If we are to rise to the greatest heights, we must be taught how to do so, because we are not born with this knowledge.

Many today are very easily influenced by other, strong personalities. This is because they lacked the discipline as a child to to develop a strong ego Not many like to hear this, but hardship produces character. So long as a child is loved, discipline will benefit, not hurt him. Adult children seek love in all the wrong places because, most likely, they were not loved as children. Parental love is designed to strengthen children to develop into strong adults, but once a child becomes a weak adult, the only love that will replace what was lost, is the love of Jesus Christ. And, to the shock of most people, the love of Jesus Christ is discipline.

Heb 12:6 - For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Verse 7 - If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as sons; for what son is he whom the Lord chasteneth not?

Verse 8 - But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, ye are bastards and not sons.

There are two ways that the Lord chastens us. There are two judgments. The White Throne Judgment mediated by Christ Jesus, and Jehovah's Wrath, the sowing and reaping judgment executed by Satan, the Lord's faithful servant. When we transfer over into Christ and the White Throne Judgment, Satan continues to have the authority to render a just recompense when we sin without repentance -- and that includes the hidden sins of our heart, even the ones we don't know about. The White Throne Judgment reveals our sins and helps us to change. As we [Christ Jesus in us] war against our sin nature, Satan loses her power to hurt us.

1 Tim 1:9 - Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers....

The correction of Christ Jesus is the mercy of God, because if we are not told what we do wrong and how to correct it, we will be a fool who makes the same mistakes over and over again. True discipline teaches alternative methods of dealing with difficult situations. There has to be a consequence for what we do wrong, but the mercyof God shows us what to do the next time around.

Our merciful Father in Heaven, and all merciful parents, correct their children's every fault, and instruct them in righteousness. Physical children, as well as spiritual children, who are not disciplined, are bastards, meaning, they are fatherless. So we see that it is possible to have two physical parents and be fatherless - an orphan. Likewise, it is possible to have the Holy Spirit and be a spiritual bastard.

Christ Jesus teaches His sons in two ways. He speaks to us directly, in the Spirit, and He speaks to us through men. Physical parents who teach righteousness are Christ Jesus to their children, and should be respected for disciplining. Physical parents who teach Bible principles but do not know the Lord personally, are still Christ Jesus to their children. I was corrected once by a total stranger standing in front of me on a line. I knew it was God. You see, we must have a knowledge of what is right in any specific circumstance before we can bring the judgment, or correction. Disciplined children are blessed children, and undisciplined children are cursed children.

Aggghhhhh. You mean buying my children everything their heart desires does not make them blessed? I have known some wealhy people in my lifetime, and I have never met a one whose children weren't strongly disciplined in all areas of life. You, see, wealthy people know that if you are not disciplined you won't be wealthy for very long. As a matter of fact, the more undisciplined you are, the more you are likely to lose in life. God help us all to be disciplined.

Am I perfectly disciplined? No. But, I try to improve every day. I try to learn every day. And once you start moving in such a self-improvement program, the Lord sends people to you for you to help.

Very few today are corrected directly from Christ Jesus within themselves because what we hear in the Spirit is difficult to understand, and frequently needs to be interpreted. The more educated in God we are, the more likely we are to understand His spiritual communications but, in the meantime, He speaks to us through other men.

The disciplining of the Church has just begun. Very soon, many who cannot, or will not, be corrected by the Lord, will fall under the wrath of the sowing and reaping judgment. Although it will be painful, this is a good thing, because many will repent and be restored to righteousness. And many adult children will grow up.

We are limited as to how far we can grow spiritually, by how mature we are in our natural lives. Well, this doesn't sound right, many would say, but it is true, nevertheless. Spiritual growth requires strong discipline and concentration. We must learn to deal with our carnal mind if we are to go on in the Spirit, because Satan will continually harass our spiritual efforts, if we do not.

Physical children are not sent to school until they are mature enough to respond to the teacher, sit in their seat, etc. Likewise, spiritual students are not sent to school until they are mature enough to pay attention and control their spiritual bowel movements. Does anyone remember what our spiritual bowel movements are?

JSNGSNG: Activities of the carnal mind.

LivingEM: Yes. Spiritual bowel movements are the sins that our carnal mind directs at Christ Jesus wherever He is appearing. Can anyone tell us who the spiritual urine is?

Myprecous1: Satan


LivingEM: Yes. The spiritual urine is Satan and the spiritual bowel movement is the evil thought form that our carnal mind produces.

Spiritual children present a problem in spiritual ministries. One must learn to control their beast nature before they can participate in a spiritual ministry without damaging the teacher and others who are present.

Praise the Lord!!! Are their any questions or comments about this message?

God bless all you sons of God, who are chastened daily <G>. Good night.

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Pastor Vitale's Bio

Sheila R. Vitale is the founding teacher and pastor of Living Epistles Ministries and Christ-Centered Kabbalah. In that capacity, she expounds upon the Torah (Scripture) and teaches Scripture through a unique Judeo-Christian lens.

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